Kamehameha Schools Admissions Policy Upheld

[oggboy]

Re: Kamehameha Schools Admissions Policy Upheld

Just neat how the voting went, 8 Dem. for 7 Reb. against....
Go figure, the picture................
Talk about pros and con.
This is not over yet! Still get plenty things KS needs to work on as far as admission policy.
All it took was ONE person for go all the way to the top....
Hopefully after all this KS can go on educating the Keiki`s of Hawaii Nei
IMUA/ ONIPAA
OGGBOY

[Miulang]

Re: Kamehameha Schools Admissions Policy Upheld

I have said repeatedly that liberals are the racists in America. The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals is VERY liberal. And here they are reinforcing the idea that racism stem from, and is fostered by, liberal philosophy. While other liberals applaud the decision in this very forum.

The truth is a killer.

You'd really better read that en banc decision, Tim. The justices deliberately steered away from calling it a racist issue (they were arguing the merits of this case against Title VII---affirmative action); it's one of a nation of people being deprived of their right to their language and their culture after their government was illegally seized by the US.

Their decision was not based on race, but on the illegal overthrow of a sovereign government, an examination of the deprivation of access to educational alternatives for that particular student (the plaintiff), the fact that there was precedent set in 2002 by the US Congress which acknowledged that Native Hawaiian children were severely disadvantaged (even before birth), that Native Hawaiian students represent 23% of all school aged children but are severely overrepresented in the number of students qualifying for special education classes while being underrepresented in the uppermost achievement levels, etc. ("manifest imbalance"). They said that under the provisions of Title VII, KSBE is a purely private school which receives no federal funding and is therefore not subject to having its policies challenged, and that the other part of Title VII---KSBE as an employer---was not under question.

The third thing the justices examined was "do no more than necessary". This means that they believe that KSBE's policies only exist on a temporary basis, meaning that if all available slots cannot be filled by applicants with Native Hawaiian ancestry, other applicants could be admitted (like the kid on Maui was). Second, that requirement will be removed once educational parity for the Native Hawaiian student population is achieved. And while some people may grumble that that second requirement will never be fufilled because there are more qualified students than there are slots, the justices noted that in a previous decision, a time limit was never imposed on an affirmative action plan.

The Justices further commented on the special relationship the US government has had with the Native Hawaiian population in the past as precedent, so even though the vote was close, I think the prevailing opinion that KSBE's policies are legal is one that is defensible and would hold water even at the Supreme Court level.


Miulang

[oggboy]

Re: Kamehameha Schools Admissions Policy Upheld

YOU GO MUILANG...............
Tell um watt he need fo no...........
Oggboy

[brianca]

Re: Kamehameha Schools Admissions Policy Upheld

They said that under the provisions of Title VII, KSBE is a purely private school which receives no federal funding and is therefore not subject to having its policies challenged,

that'll have the be the brunt of the argument at SCOTUS. I don't think they'd agree with the rest of it at this point. The current courts leaning is more traditional in that they feel that race shouldn't be used as a factor regardless of the motivation for doing so. I expect that to be the ruling in the cases going before the court now.

I think that as a privately funded org, they would prevail were SCOTUS to take the case. I expect they won't.

[Miulang]

Re: Kamehameha Schools Admissions Policy Upheld

that'll have the be the brunt of the argument at SCOTUS. I don't think they'd agree with the rest of it at this point. The current courts leaning is more traditional in that they feel that race shouldn't be used as a factor regardless of the motivation for doing so. I expect that to be the ruling in the cases going before the court now.

I think that as a privately funded org, they would prevail were SCOTUS to take the case. I expect they won't.

But the justices also noted that there are extenuating circumstances in this case because of the illegal overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom. IF the US government had not issued the official apology to the kanaka maoli in 1993, KSBE would have an even weaker leg to stand on. But if you read the discussion, they made constant reference to the "special relationship" that the government has had with the Native Hawaiians in the past, so if they argue this on the grounds of discrimination by nationality as opposed to ethnicity, it might be more powerful.

Miulang

[timkona]

Re: Kamehameha Schools Admissions Policy Upheld

that Native Hawaiian students represent 23% of all school aged children but are severely overrepresented in the number of students qualifying for special education classes while being underrepresented in the uppermost achievement levels, etc.

You really need to read "The Bell Curve".

And still, nobody wants to address the issue of WHY certain races of students are not doing well in public school.

Everybody loves the frosting. Nobody wants to eat any cake.

Miulang, no need to respond to this one. I don't expect anybody to aggressively challenge the notion of why some races do better than others in academic settings. The only people that did that were the authors of The Bell Curve, and their conclusions were written off as junk science by the liberal media, while their numbers, facts, etc were pretty eye-opening.

I'm off to the auction to pick up some new field hands. (See, I'm already getting used to racism.)

[Miulang]

Re: Kamehameha Schools Admissions Policy Upheld

that Native Hawaiian students represent 23% of all school aged children but are severely overrepresented in the number of students qualifying for special education classes while being underrepresented in the uppermost achievement levels, etc.

You really need to read "The Bell Curve".

And still, nobody wants to address the issue of WHY certain races of students are not doing well in public school.

Everybody loves the frosting. Nobody wants to eat any cake.

Miulang, no need to respond to this one. I don't expect anybody to aggressively challenge the notion of why some races do better than others in academic settings. The only people that did that were the authors of The Bell Curve, and their conclusions were written off as junk science by the liberal media, while their numbers, facts, etc were pretty eye-opening.

I'm off to the auction to pick up some new field hands. (See, I'm already getting used to racism.)

Tim, please remember that if you think this is a mistake, BLAME IT ON YOUR OWN GOVERNMENT. They were the ones in 2002 who determined that the Native Hawaiian students were "manifestly imbalanced". They were the ones who made illegal the teaching of 'olelo from 1893 until the 1950s or early 60s. There are Native Hawaiian students who have excelled, and they are the top of "their" bell curve, but given that their socioeconomic circumstances have handicapped them in the past, their bell curve cannot be considered the same as what you call a traditional bell curve.

How do you gain parity when your family is economically disadvantaged? How do you gain parity when the prevailing society around you marginalizes your heritage for generations? It's not because they are not akamai, Tim, it's because they haven't been given the opportunities that most other kids have been given.

Miulang

P.S. Many of the kids may not be book smart, but my guess is they would whup our asses at throwing net, surfing, or anything have to do with relating to nature.

[timkona]

Re: Kamehameha Schools Admissions Policy Upheld

Dont even try the economic argument on me !!!!!!!!!!!

I resemble that remark. And worked my FN tail off my whole damned life to get where I'm at today. That economic argument JUST PISSES ME OFF TO NO END.

WEAK WEAK WEAK WEAK WEAK WEAK WEAK WEAKLINGS.

[Miulang]

Re: Kamehameha Schools Admissions Policy Upheld

Dont even try the economic argument on me !!!!!!!!!!!

I resemble that remark. And worked my FN tail off my whole damned life to get where I'm at today. That economic argument JUST PISSES ME OFF TO NO END.

WEAK WEAK WEAK WEAK WEAK WEAK WEAK WEAKLINGS.

Awwww, don't bust your hemorrhoid over this. Be proud of what you have accomplished. But just because you were able to do it, don't expect everyone to have your same set of circumstances that allowed you to succeed, either.

Miulang

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: Kamehameha Schools Admissions Policy Upheld

Miulang, no need to respond to this one. I don't expect anybody to aggressively challenge the notion of why some races do better than others in academic settings.

Tim, go read what I wrote on this thread earlier.

[pzarquon]

Re: Kamehameha Schools Admissions Policy Upheld

Jerry Burris tries to distill it:

On the face of it, the policy violates rock-solid civil rights law that has been around since just after the Civil War. You just don't discriminate on the basis of race, whether it is in a business deal, in employment or in schooling. This applies even when the underlying goal, as some of the judges who ruled against Kahmehameha acknowledged, is a good, even worthy one.

But the courts have also long allowed presumptively discriminatory policies to remain in place, at least temporarily, if they have a demonstrable "remedial" purpose. Much of our civil rights legislation, affirmative action laws and the like, are designed to repair the damage done by slavery.

If you think affirmative action and other laws are a bad idea or past their usefulness and now counterproductive, you likely feel the same way about the KSBE admission policy. If you think there's still more "remediation" to do for historical wrongs and the socio-economic trends -- not universal certainties, but trends -- then KSBE's basic plan makes sense.

I do agree with Pua'i that the more troubling issue this case is bringing to light is that KSBE seems to have forgotten that "the orphaned and indigent" came before "the Hawaiian" in the Princess' will. That they deign to carve out 15 percent of their seats for the "poor Hawaiians" she was concerned most about. If KSBE's policy needs to be upheld because of all those "poor Hawaiians," let's see more of them benefit from a KSBE education.

[Bard]

Re: Kamehameha Schools Admissions Policy Upheld

I thought I read somewhere that there was federal funding going to KS. Was that incorrect or did it change recently or something? I'd think if it was getting any federal funding then things might be quite different.

[kamuelakea]

Re: Kamehameha Schools Admissions Policy Upheld

I thought I read somewhere that there was federal funding going to KS. Was that incorrect or did it change recently or something? I'd think if it was getting any federal funding then things might be quite different.

There are 2 issues you might be remembering.

1) KSBE enjoys non-profit tax free status. They pay no taxes on profits and therefore should not "discriminate on the basis of.......".

2) There was an issue with ROTC. I think it received federal funding. I believe KSBE dumped ROTC in order to not trigger a federal issue.

So they are not completely "private". KSBE could probaby get away with current admission policies if it were willing to dump its not for profit status. But that might cost billions.

[brianca]

Re: Kamehameha Schools Admissions Policy Upheld

If you think affirmative action and other laws are a bad idea or past their usefulness and now counterproductive, you likely feel the same way about the KSBE admission policy. If you think there's still more "remediation" to do for historical wrongs and the socio-economic trends -- not universal certainties, but trends -- then KSBE's basic plan makes sense.

But that depends on the assumption that discrimination based on race is ok if the motives are good. That's not what the law says on the matter. The law argues that even if you agree with why they are doing it, it's still illegal.

As for the overthrow, the government didn't conclude that the US was behind the overthrow. All coups are illegal. I don't think that argument will carry much weight with SCOTUS if they hear it.

[Keith H.]

Re: Kamehameha Schools Admissions Policy Upheld

that'll have the be the brunt of the argument at SCOTUS. I don't think they'd agree with the rest of it at this point. The current courts leaning is more traditional in that they feel that race shouldn't be used as a factor regardless of the motivation for doing so. I expect that to be the ruling in the cases going before the court now.

I think that as a privately funded org, they would prevail were SCOTUS to take the case. I expect they won't.

Sorry, you lost me there. Do you mean Kamehameha won't prevail? Or that SCOTUS won't take the case?