Where do you stand on the issue of abortion?

[Glen Miyashiro]

Re: Where do you stand on the issue of abortion?

Ryan, if this thread continues along these lines, perhaps it might be best moved to a different section: Hawaii Hall, maybe?

Here's what I was trying to get at with my question to Mel. My thoughts on this matter are largely informed by my reading of Peter Singer, the animal rights activist and philosophy professor. Singer draws parallels between animal rights and biomedical ethics - including issues such as abortion and whether to "pull the plug" on comatose patients - by asking, what exactly is it about human life that we feel is so precious? Is it the ability to think and speak? Fetuses and brain-dead accident victims can't, although fetuses have the potential to grow up and do so, and maybe that accident victim might get better and wake up one day. Chimpanzees and retarded people can, sort of. Is it the ability to feel emotions like fear? Mammals apparently do. Is it the ability to suffer pain? Hell, anything with a nervous system probably does.

It is in this context, of trying to think rationally about what our ethical values should be, that I think about abortion. Sure, you're killing a living thing. But we kill living things every day. The question is, which living things do we kill, and when is it justifiable?

[Albert]

Re: Where do you stand on the issue of abortion?

... "what exactly is it about human life that we feel is so precious?"

I don't believe human life is any more precious than any other form of life, although I'll certainly swat a mosquito but will never, I hope, kill another human.

This is something of an echo about those bones found at the Wal-Mart site which one contributor said were "sacred". And some think embryos are "sacred".

As I said, I think it is entirely up to the pregnant woman. And it does seem that it might be better for that potential-human to be terminated rather than to be an unwanted child.

[Karen]

Re: Where do you stand on the issue of abortion?

As I see this thread now, we are all being respectful, to avoid any flaming wars, and this is commendable! I think we all know what makes some of us see life as sacred and it is solidly based upon our religious beliefs. The human has a soul and an eternal destiny, with judgement by an intelligent, living God, at the end of each life. Millions upon millions of us believe that God created, only He gives life, and only He takes it away. You've all heard my beliefs here, before.

Should this thread take the practical direction of us trying to find agreement that would work, to stop the free, easy and loose use of abortion? I think so. Those posting here that clearly are pro-choice, have, thankfully, said they/you wish abortion to not be used except when necessary for the life of the mother, in rape cases or the relatively few honestly necessary cases. I respect this, while I know what you wish is far from reality. Any gal can have multiple abortions, and do this because she uses abortion as birth control. this is lazy, gross and unnecessary with so many types of birth control available.

How to get more females to use birth control? I don't know if this is possible, as long as abortion is so freely available, and herein lies, the rub.

[Mary]

Re: Where do you stand on the issue of abortion?

I am TOTALLY AGAINST IT!

[mel]

Re: Where do you stand on the issue of abortion?

God Bless You.

[makepagirl]

Re: Where do you stand on the issue of abortion?

years ago, a very close family member came to me..she & boyfriend were pregnant & scared..but,asked would i be willing to take this baby &raise it til they were out of college..@the time i had a 4 yr old son &had lost my 3 week old,leilani, to crib death..we agreed..to be aunty &uncle..we even saw sonograms of this lil one..then after weeks of discussions,the boys mom took her for an abortion...(she was already a few mths pregnant!) when i was 16 yrs old &7 months pregnant,my own mom took me to a doctor for a checkup,after i was there,they explained that it would be best to terminate my pregnancy,that i had no choice...excuse me but hell no!!! i screamed & cried &was finally allowed to leave when i threatened to call the police..i've seen girls use abortion as a form of birth control...there are sooo many people out here that can't have babies & then there are those who can,just to get more welfare help....i've had approx. 9 miscarriages due to physical abuse in my younger yrs.it hurts my soul to hear about people doing it so easily!! i understand if there are medical reasons to terminate..also for woman who've been raped....but,there's no way to describe that feeling when you actually feel a life moving in you..a part of you...........by the way...that baby of mine just turned 21 yrs old....there's a beautiful photo of him on the alohaworld lost ohana site!!yes, its the mom's choice..but..there are other choices available too............

[kamlost]

Re: Where do you stand on the issue of abortion?

I am against any form of abortion. I wouldn't be here today if my mom wasn't against abortion.

I know someone who's mother tried to abort her. And she's had to live with those thoughts. It's pretty painful to see.

[Glen Miyashiro]

Re: Where do you stand on the issue of abortion?

I wouldn't be here today if my mom wasn't against abortion.

I think most everyone who was born is here because their moms were against aborting them. (Except for your friend, who I feel sorry for.)

But people make different decisions at different times. The 15-year-old girl who aborts an unintended and unwanted pregnancy might go on to have more kids... when she is older and better able to raise them. Now, would you say that that young woman is for or against abortion? She did it once... and then chose not to do it again, later.

[kimo55]

Re: Where do you stand on the issue of abortion?

"Where do you stand on the issue of abortion?"

which issue was that, the July issue?

[AuntieNellieKulolo]

Re: Where do you stand on the issue of abortion?

I believe that life begins at conception, but that all parties concerned should be brought into consideration when considering abortion. It shouldn't be a black-or-white issue, and EC or menstrual extraction should be more readily available. I believe there is much less suffering involved for both woman and embryo when it can be done as early as possible. I would feel much better flushing a 1-2-day old zygote out of my system than an embryo, is it even sentient at that stage? Education is also an issue, women should know their fertility cycles and how/when one actually becomes pregnant. About 14 years ago I stupidly had unprotected mid-cycle sex(alcohol was involved) and the next day went to the campus clinic for EC. At that time I was very lucky it was available, even though it made me very sick to my stomach. I didn't want to take any chances, even though the chance was still slim that I was pregnant. I did learn from my mistake, it was one reason why I don't drink anymore.

[craigwatanabe]

Re: Where do you stand on the issue of abortion?

True, starting a thread on abortion often seems as pointless an excersize as asking, "What's better, PCs or Macs?" But, I think so far we've seen a reasonable effort to express one's views without outright attacking people who hold the opposite position. FWIW, I think Glen's inquiry was a pretty earnest attempt at learning something, rather than some kind of aggressive challenge to Mel to explain himself.

I don't believe life begins at conception, but then again, I can get backed into a corner pretty quickly if asked to pick a moment when I think a fertilized egg does become a person. But, hard and fast rules are hard to come by for both sides. When you get into exemptions for rape, or birth defects, risk to the mother's life, etc., you also start getting into a grey area that's hard to navigate when it comes to drafting and enforcing laws.

I agree with Glen in that I believe abortions should be legal, but certainly not "popular." I might be staunchly pro-choice, but I confess to being disturbed by the "When One Is Enough" column controversy a few weeks back. If abortions become too prevalent or used too casually, though, I think the problem lies in our values, not in the existence of the medical procedure.

The way I see it is, even ifI felt life begins at conception, what I think and believe does not a fact or moral absolute make. If I were pro-life, the solution would be to help other women to see things my way but still choose themselves that abortion is the wrong decision - to "choose life," as it were.

Trying to legislate away a woman's control over her own body just seems ridiculous to me.

PC's of course!!!

[craigwatanabe]

Re: Where do you stand on the issue of abortion?

Personally I'm against it on several fronts but I'm also one not to put my values and shove it down someone elses throat.

1) It's not natural to abort
2) It's a traumatic experience for both mother and fetus

These two are the most important reasons why I'm against abortion in it's entirety. There are good reasons why abortion shouldn't be totally banned. When the life of the woman is in danger, one should consider abortion. When the pregnancy was forced upon the woman and she should have that right to abort.

One thing about abortion if it does become 100% legal is that it should be treated like a bancruptcy. One thing about bancruptcy is that if you file for it you have several years of penalty before you can file again. You are restricted financially from most forms of credit.

Adapting that to abortion, if one chooses abortion, they cannot abort for several years unless that person was the victim of rape.

If they do choose to become pregnant within that penalized time period, medical insurance should have the right to waive any subsidy. This is more of a deterrant so the couple choosing abortion will consider the ramifications of their decision to abort or to even PUINSAI!

Regarding the safety of the woman if such laws were to be put in place and the woman resorts to dangerous forms of abortions such as coathangers, there should be laws like fraud laws that can technically stop these illegal operations. But like fraud laws, the victim must exercise some level of intelligence when they get involved in these obviously bad ideas.

Which takes me to the word, Responsibility. People need to be held responsible for their actions. Like bancruptcy, you cannot just wipe your slate clean and continue to make bad financial decisions and expect the bancruptcy court to be as lenient on you as they were on the first filing.

So with that said, to make you a responsible person (obviously if you had consentual sex knowing that you could get pregnant that's not acting responsibly) the abortion laws would prohibit you from having another abortion for let's say 7-years (like bancruptcy). If you do you go to jail for fraud or pay for any medical services without the aid of medical insurance.

Okay you fear going to jail and you cannot afford the cost of an operation, so you choose the illegal operation. This is where responsibility comes in. If you choose the illegal route, it's your life you're playing with much like the drug user. The options of going to jail or paying the costs should be enough of a deterrant to stop you from acting irresponsibly. If not then you deserve to pay the cost whether it be jail time or medical bills.

Should the penalization be limited to the woman? No both partners should be involved. But if the woman decides to abort and the man decides to keep the baby, he must pay for all expenses plus the woman's living expenses while she's out being pregnant or nursing. Likewise if the woman decides to keep the baby and the man decides not to, he should still pay for everything.

Unfair to the man? Well he should have thought about responsibility before he started swinging his chain. SHWING!

Complicated? If we were all responsible then laws debates like this wouldn't be around. I have six boys, all were accidents, none were planned. If I were pro-abortion none of them would be around today. Each of them has had a profound effect on my marriage in positive ways. The older children have helped formed the younger one's personalities. The oldest child isnt the most intelligent but he's loving. He's helped nurture the stabile nature of our other children. My second eldest is critically intelligent and will contribute to our society's science. My third eldest exudes common sense and has helped me redefine my reasons for succeeding in life. My fourth and fifth are just like my first and second, leaving my sixth (my 8-month old sleeping next to me) open to the contributions of my other five children.

But each of my children will have something to contribute to this world. This is my way of raising my children to be part of the solution and not the problems of the world. Abortion would have ended any contribution to the salvation us. This is how being responsible is, as a parent when making the decision to either have a child or simply screwing your mate for the joy of it.

Abortion takes the responsibility out of the hands of those responsible. Everyday I look at my children I feel so glad that I took that responsible route and raised every one of them successfully and I'm not rich either. I paid the price to have my wife stay home while I worked two and sometimes three jobs to support my growing family. The sacrifices I paid came in the form of electricity and phone service being cut off to feed my children, foregoing eating dinner with the kids so there's enough food for them only to eat a bowl of cereal late at night.

And I believe in miracles because for all that our family went thru in sacrifice, we have been rewarded later on. We rented instead of buying a home. We drove old cars that broke down a lot instead of buying new. We frequented Good Will and the Salvation Army to put clothes on our backs instead of buying at the mall. I fixed everything myself instead of calling the plumber, electrician, carpenter, television repair man by learning how to do it.

Some of my friends tell me I sacrificed too much and they chose abortion. Their lives are still the same, they're still struggling to live and now that they've decided to have children, they can't medically for some reason.

I struggled the same way they did even more with each addition, but at this present time, I look at their lives (which hasn't changed) and mine. After saving everything I could save, I cashed out and bought my home in cash (literally) here in Kea'au. My wife has been blessed with a good paying job as a result of her years of schooling at UH and Chaminade and because we have no mortgage, I don't have to work anymore if I don't want to. So far it's been a three month long vacation after 25-years of working seven days a week supporting my growing family.

I believe in miracles, I have six of them, one healthy marriage, and a fully paid for house and cars. I'm finally living a good life after years of sacrifice and struggling and I'm only 44 years old. And I believe I earned these because of my devotion to God and his mandate of not aborting his precious gifts of life offered to me in the form of my children.

But like God says, thou shalt not judge, and I for one will not demand another to abort for the sake of God. It's your choice, but there should be ramifications for your decisions. We all need to act responsibly.

[Glen Miyashiro]

Re: Where do you stand on the issue of abortion?

Personally I'm against it on several fronts but I'm also one not to put my values and shove it down someone elses throat.

1) It's not natural to abort

It's not "natural" to have surgery, or to beat down an infection with antibiotics, or to cure somebody of cancer, either, but we routinely do those things. I don't think the "it's not natural" argument holds much water, because one could argue that every bit of human technology -- going as far back as planting crops instead of hunting and gathering! -- isn't "natural".

And if you're suggesting that every fertilized egg is supposed to grow up to be a baby, then that's incorrect also. I can't recall the figures but a large fraction of fertilized eggs are unsuccessful in implanting and growing properly, regardless of whether we consciously do anything about them.

2) It's a traumatic experience for both mother and fetus

Very. I agree. I know a few women who have had abortions, and none of them took it lightly or happily.

These two are the most important reasons why I'm against abortion in it's entirety. There are good reasons why abortion shouldn't be totally banned. When the life of the woman is in danger, one should consider abortion. When the pregnancy was forced upon the woman and she should have that right to abort.

Sounds OK to me so far.

One thing about abortion if it does become 100% legal is that it should be treated like a bancruptcy. One thing about bancruptcy is that if you file for it you have several years of penalty before you can file again. You are restricted financially from most forms of credit.

Adapting that to abortion, if one chooses abortion, they cannot abort for several years unless that person was the victim of rape.

If they do choose to become pregnant within that penalized time period, medical insurance should have the right to waive any subsidy. This is more of a deterrant so the couple choosing abortion will consider the ramifications of their decision to abort or to even PUINSAI!

Regarding the safety of the woman if such laws were to be put in place and the woman resorts to dangerous forms of abortions such as coathangers, there should be laws like fraud laws that can technically stop these illegal operations. But like fraud laws, the victim must exercise some level of intelligence when they get involved in these obviously bad ideas.

Which takes me to the word, Responsibility. People need to be held responsible for their actions. Like bancruptcy, you cannot just wipe your slate clean and continue to make bad financial decisions and expect the bancruptcy court to be as lenient on you as they were on the first filing.

So with that said, to make you a responsible person (obviously if you had consentual sex knowing that you could get pregnant that's not acting responsibly) the abortion laws would prohibit you from having another abortion for let's say 7-years (like bancruptcy). If you do you go to jail for fraud or pay for any medical services without the aid of medical insurance.

Okay you fear going to jail and you cannot afford the cost of an operation, so you choose the illegal operation. This is where responsibility comes in. If you choose the illegal route, it's your life you're playing with much like the drug user. The options of going to jail or paying the costs should be enough of a deterrant to stop you from acting irresponsibly. If not then you deserve to pay the cost whether it be jail time or medical bills.

Should the penalization be limited to the woman? No both partners should be involved. But if the woman decides to abort and the man decides to keep the baby, he must pay for all expenses plus the woman's living expenses while she's out being pregnant or nursing. Likewise if the woman decides to keep the baby and the man decides not to, he should still pay for everything.

Unfair to the man? Well he should have thought about responsibility before he started swinging his chain. SHWING!

I agree that people need to be responsible for their own actions, but I think I don't agree with your bankruptcy analogy. I haven't thought it through so I will just say that it seems flawed, and leave it at that for now.

I have six boys, all were accidents, none were planned. If I were pro-abortion none of them would be around today.

Doesn't follow, Craig. By your definition I am "pro-abortion" (I prefer to say "pro-choice") and I have children too. One was an accident, and I didn't automatically decide that another kid would be too much trouble and that my wife should abort it. The key here is that you have a choice as to whether to continue the pregnancy or not. Sometimes you choose Yes.

But each of my children will have something to contribute to this world. This is my way of raising my children to be part of the solution and not the problems of the world. Abortion would have ended any contribution to the salvation us.

Here's an interesting point: what if the aborted fetus would have turned out to be a really great person - a leader of men, a world-class scientist, an artist of exceptional talent? Well, maybe. But maybe the kid might have turned out to be a no-good, stupid, waste of space. Honestly, you can't know. On average I think it balances out.

Abortion takes the responsibility out of the hands of those responsible. Everyday I look at my children I feel so glad that I took that responsible route and raised every one of them successfully and I'm not rich either.

And I believe in miracles because for all that our family went thru in sacrifice, we have been rewarded later on.

And what would you say to the man who sacrificed just as much as you, and who never was rewarded - who lost everything, has a family who despises him, and lives under the Nimitz bridge by the airport? Was that a miracle too? If God smiled on you, then he must really hate that guy.

Some of my friends tell me I sacrificed too much and they chose abortion. Their lives are still the same, they're still struggling to live and now that they've decided to have children, they can't medically for some reason.

Yup. I know lots of folks who deferred kids till later, and are paying the price now in infertility problems. That was their choice, and that's their problem. So? Unless you're suggesting that their infertility is God's punishment to them for having had an abortion earlier in life.

I believe in miracles, I have six of them, one healthy marriage, and a fully paid for house and cars. I'm finally living a good life after years of sacrifice and struggling and I'm only 44 years old. And I believe I earned these because of my devotion to God and his mandate of not aborting his precious gifts of life offered to me in the form of my children.

But like God says, thou shalt not judge, and I for one will not demand another to abort for the sake of God. It's your choice, but there should be ramifications for your decisions. We all need to act responsibly.

Sigh. You worked hard, Craig, and you got where you are by yourself. Mad props to you for your achievements. But I don't think your (and your wife's) choice to keep all six of your kids had much to do with it.

[Konaguy]

Re: Where do you stand on the issue of abortion?

I was going to avoid putting my .02 in on this one. But I changed my mind.....
I believe it is the womans right to choose.It shouldn't be up to courts
or the government to decide for them. I frankly don't want to go back
to dark days where women would have to resort to back alley abortions.
Placing the womans life in jeopardy since the abortion is being conducted
in a unhealthy environment of a back alley is not right.

[craigwatanabe]

Re: Where do you stand on the issue of abortion?

I think so. Work hard get your rewards. The man under the Nimitz bridge? I worked food lines and I've come to realize that a lot of homeless choose that route with a smile.

When each child was conceived, we had grand plans for our future. Each pregnancy put a major hold on them. They're still on hold albeit not as grand as I thought they'd be.

I have Christian friends who follow God's doctrines and cannot conceive. I don't know what's going on in their spiritual lives, maybe it's not their time to conceive? I don't know and I don't profess to try to understand God's will. I just follow it in ways I understand and cope with it. There are a lot of Christians who believe they follow God's will but are still frustrated in life.

When you compare antibiotics to abortion you must understand the differences between those comparisons. Antibiotics treat a bad thing in your body. Is a fetus a bad thing? It is if you want to abort.

And I don't know about you but the chances of my wife getting pregnant must be beating the odds because we used the rhythm method and contraception and we still get six kids. Punishment? Yeah probably God's way of telling me not to deceive him again. Nobody likes to be fooled.

Reminds me of a cartoon someone emailed me:

Two sperm are swimming frantically when one asks the other, "How much farther to the egg?" The other one answers, "patience we just passed the tonsils!"

And on that note, to each their own. This is my mandate I impose on myself (I learned that from my wife), and that everyone has their own direction in life, you just gotta find it. My job is to help shed light on at least one option, but it's up to you to decide which option to take. All I can tell you is that the option I took made me a happy man.