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The "Real" Middle Eastern War

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  • #31
    Why people in Hawaii should care about this conflict

    Since Hawai'i is largely dependent on imported goods, you may start seeing increases in the cost of everything you buy because of the uncertainty in the Middle East.

    "...As Israel battles Hezbollah forces in Lebanon, the U.S. economy is reacting, particularly the stock market and the price of oil. Local economists say Hawaii's pump prices don't have to go up because so much of our oil comes from Asia -- but they say retailers probably will at least try, and that trickles down to just about all goods and services...

    "...The economic impact also affects the cost of doing business.

    "We're in the restaurant business, and you can see it in the delivery surcharges, computer tech people are charging surcharges, $30 travel time, that kind of thing," Dickson said.

    And just getting stuff to Hawaii in the first place becomes a little more expensive.

    "The Matson containers that are coming in, bringing the goods in, they're passing on the charge to us," Dickson said.

    Hawaii could see a slight lag before prices jump in response to the latest oil-barrel rates. As for airline, shipping or electric bill surcharges, many companies have already factored in some expected oil hikes."

    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

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    • #32
      Re: The "Real" Middle Eastern War...

      Originally posted by Miulang
      Mahatma Ghandi said something very profound about retribution:

      "An eye for an eye will only make the whole world blind."
      A thoughtful quote but without meaning when one side in the conflict (Hezbollah, Hamas, Iran and Syria) has the elimination of Israel as its oft-stated goal. A quote I find instructive is from Golda Meir " Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us."

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      • #33
        Re: The "Real" Middle Eastern War...

        Originally posted by glossyp
        A thoughtful quote but without meaning when one side in the conflict (Hezbollah, Hamas, Iran and Syria) has the elimination of Israel as its oft-stated goal. A quote I find instructive is from Golda Meir " Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us."
        And Israel is intent on getting rid of Hezbollah, which was created out of the original Israel-Lebanon war, at the expense of innocent Lebanese. Israel is not just targeting military targets. They are endangering American lives. In one sense, thank god Benjamin Netanyahu and his zealot bunch were not put into power in Israel. If it had, I think Israel would have already dropped a few US-supplied nuclear warheads on the people of Lebanon and the Palestine. It's also interesting to note that Hamas and Hezbollah used to be sort of enemies; now with Israel's actions, they may be coalescing and joining forces. The more Israel bombs Lebanon, the more the moderate Lebanese will take the side of Hezbollah. You know what else is kind of ironic? The White House is the one that put the current government of Lebanon in power. The White House was also at the forefront of spreading democracy in the Palestine, to ensure that its elections were fair. And guess what? The Palestinians were the ones who voted Hamas into office. Once again, the US policy of "regime change" may come back and bite us in the butt.

        Miulang

        P.S. Could the Israelis use Golda Meir's saying on themselves? "Peace will come when the Israelis love their children more than they hate Hezbollah"? For the Israeli Knesset, I think the answer is sadly no, they hate Hezbollah more than they love their children or their country or world opinion.
        Last edited by Miulang; July 15, 2006, 10:07 AM.
        "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

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        • #34
          Re: The "Real" Middle Eastern War...

          Considering that Hezbollah has been firing rockets at Israel ever since the Israelis left southern Lebanon in 2000, and that Hamas has been sending suicide bombers into Israel for nearly as long, what would you have the Israelis do?

          Both Hezbollah and Hamas have as their stated goals the destruction of Israel, and they've shown no inclination to change that. When a neighboring country like Lebanon can't control a terrorist organization (and yes, I'm aware of the social good Hezbollah and Hamas each do in their respective communities; they wouldn't have gained electorally without that), and when the Palestinians can't control their own terrorist factions, at some point this kind of tragedy was almost bound to occur.
          http://www.linkmeister.com/wordpress/

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          • #35
            Re: The "Real" Middle Eastern War...

            The point to remember is that it is not part of the Israeli constitution nor charter to eliminate Muslims or Arabs - this is not true of Hamas or Hezebollah vis a vis Israel and the Jewish people.

            An instructive place for anyone interested in understanding the very long history of the region is this overview. The author appears to be Jewish but one committed to working together for peace. He/she makes every effort to be unbiased. Brief History

            A quote from an essay by the author:

            "There are only two options left - a two state solution or winner take all. All those who justify the Hamas are supporting the winner take all solution and closing out the two state solution, and likewise those who support Greater Israel are making peace impossible. Each does it because of their ideologies - luxuries that neither real Israelis nor actual Palestinians can really afford.

            There are two sides. Those against violence and for protecting the rights of Palestinian Arabs and Israelis are on one side. Those who justify violence and look for which side is to blame are on the other side. The latter are always part of the problem. If anyone wants to know whose fault the conflict is, it is their fault."

            Ami Isseroff

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            • #36
              no conscience, no forgiveness , Re: The "Real" Middle Eastern War...

              --
              " A nation can be held accountable for a holocaust (z), and so a nation must remember national achievements of which it is proud.(y) It must recall the things that make it hang its head in shame(x), and perhaps be a little less arrogant as it recalls its own anguish, bewilderment, and impotence after September 11(w). It might then perhaps be led to think how others might have felt in Nagasaki and Hiroshima (v), ; how little girls running naked from napalm bombs were feeling(u); how those whose lands were devastated by smart bombs in Iraq felt. Or those in Nicaragua and the contras; or Chile after their President Allende was assassinated through the machinations of the CIA; or Angola and its civil war with a U.S.-backed Savimbi and Congo still reeling from the U.S.-sponsored assassination of its first Prime Minister Patrice Lumumba. And when it contemplates all of this, it will want to cry out to be forgiven and, in its turn, to want to forgive...."(t), Desmond Tutu www.beliefnet.com/story/88/story_8880_1 --

              (z) To my knowledge, the United States has never in its history, including especially for Hawai'i vis-a-vis the rhetorical U.S. Apology reHawaii, apologized in any kind of meaningfully retributive way for the immorality it spawned, the immorality it perpetrated on others not-US . The United States is founded on actions of legal commissions and , amoral and immoral perpetrations of serial and overlapping holocausts upon others not-US, holocausts of unprecedented scope and scale, as well as holocausts similar in every way to holocausts perpetrated worldwide for centuries by European imperialist powers until around the middle of the 20thCE century, capped off with the Germanazi commissioned holocaust in Euroasia, shadowed by Imperial Japan's in the East Pacific. Mr. Bush assures the world that history is going to redeem him, that it only appears otherwise. That it only appears that his, wBush and his henchmen's --really it is though, Dick Cheney's puppet WBush and Cheney/Frank Carlucci Gang's henchmen's and sycophants' -- militarist quandries are morally unbreachable. That it only appears that he, Bush/they was/were is/are in an acceptable transition phase, something which he/they/US (and little more than 20% of the U.S. public) suggest is ' ' ... merely one of those unexpected things we'll get through, trust me... in "our advance of democracy"wBush...' '

              (y) When "a nation must remember national achievements of which it is proud", how much more difficult it is for those of that nation to see through the fog of the unforgiven and the unforgivable, to draw encouragement from memories, myths and half-truths when one has had for long duration only memories, disconnected and sparse at that, of national achievements truly worthy of praise in any long-range sense!

              (x) The United States is shameless. Read any United States' primary and secondary U.S. history book, then, read Stephen Kinzer's Overthrow (6am , tomorrow on Book-TV c-span 2), or James W. Lowen's Lies My Teacher Told Me, Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong. America knows no shame. Some Americans may feel shame for their country, but their country still knows no shame, their country feels no need for contrition, no troubled conscience for which to seek forgiveness. And, in such arrogance and self-delusion, conceives of no U.S. war (holocaust) with too high a price to pay.

              (w) And what is the US American presription for national "anguish, bewilderment, and impotence after September 11, 2001" ? What else? War, War and more War! Nothing in the modern United States fosters glorioUS patriUStism like a "smart" war "to defend" (corporatUSt and, it seems, militant Zionizt Israeli) "national interest$".

              (v) Just watched a segment on c-span2 of Gino Strada and Howard Zinn recorded on 12 May2006 at Immanuel Church In Los Angeles, where Mr. Zinn speaks of his being of the U.S. homicide bombers (ala firebombing of Dresden, Frankfort, Berlin etc., ~600,000 civilian deaths; Japan ala firebombing Tokyo, atom bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki , ~600,000 civilian) of WW2. Mr. Zinn said that his reading of John Hersey's Hiroshima significantly contributed to his better understanding of what he had actually been doing as a bombadier.

              (u) Some remember in the early phase in US War:Vietnam videos, photos and reports of Buddhist monks sitting, self-immolating, consuming themselves in flames in protest of escalating militarism that was evolving into what American's call "The Vietnam War". [How convenient to name US wars by never having US's name in the words that are used to specify it was/is US's war ! US killed over a million Southeast Asians in US War:Vietnam.] No Americans made much of the monks' deaths.

              (t) By the words *nation*, *it*, *its*,,,to mean the United States Government, specifically to mean the CheneyBush regime, never " it will want to cry out to be forgiven", unless they are indicted and tried on war crimes, or somehow rendered without the power to live and rule with impunity, face the consequences of their misleadership and crimes and be subject to punishment appropriate to their crimes. Punishment, moderated individually only by each criminal's "cry out to be forgiven and, in its turn, to want to forgive."
              Last edited by waioli kai; July 15, 2006, 04:50 PM.

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              • #37
                forfeiting real estate to create "Israel" , Re: The "Real" Middle Eastern War...

                -
                -glossyp= "... when one side in the conflict (Hezbollah, Hamas, Iran and Syria) has the elimination of Israel as its oft-stated goal. "

                Elimination of Israel? They would have no cause to be in opposition of Israel somewhere besides Palestine and the Middle East.

                Why not Israel in some part of Germany? Why is Israel being forced on Palestine? On the Middle East? Was it Arabs and Persians and Moslems of the Middle East who perpetrated holocaust on Jews?!! No!! Of course not!! It was Nazi Germany and British and American and French and Spanish anti-Ashkenazi Jew political power elites with their racists followings who perpetrated or otherwise enabled holocaust of Jews of Europe and Euroasia. Their nations should be called upon to forfeit real estate on which to create "Israel", not Palestine, not the Middle East.
                Last edited by waioli kai; July 15, 2006, 05:14 PM.

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                • #38
                  awe

                  There always ARE two sides to every story. Here's the story of why Hezbollah was born...It was out of a need that the Lebanese felt to get Israel out of occupying Palestinian and Lebanese land.

                  If Israel had not invaded and occupied Lebanon in order to ferret out the PLO (deja vu all over again, except replace PLO with Hezbollah?), Hezbollah would not have been created, and Israel would only have had Hamas or its predecessor, the PLO, to deal with.

                  "...The history of Hezbollah begins with the 1982 occupation of Beirut and southern Lebanon by Israel. Israel had re-invaded the country in an effort to control members of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) who had settled there and were carrying out attacks on Israel. In response Shi'ite Muslims with the assistance of Iranian Revolutionary Guards formed Hezbollah to combat the Israeli presence, and ultimately to assist the Palestinians in their fight for statehood.

                  "...In the wake of the September 11 attacks, which Hezbollah has officially denounced, the U.S. has asked Lebanon to freeze the group's assets, a move that has so far been resisted by the government in Beirut. ... Hezbollah currently has 12 elected members in the Lebanese government."

                  Miulang

                  P.S. Here's a fascinating (and loooong) article in Foreign Affairs magazine from 2003 dissecting Hezbollah and what the US strategy in dealing with this group should be. It should be noted that Hezbollah may be the "grandfather" of all terrorist groups...al Qaeda is a relative newcomer compared to Hezbollah...and that Hezbollah was the group that perfected the suicide bomb, which is now used widely by terrorist organizations all over the world.
                  Last edited by Miulang; July 15, 2006, 06:03 PM.
                  "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: The "Real" Middle Eastern War...

                    The Arab League met today in Cairo to try to draft some plans to diffuse the situation between Israel, the Palestine and Lebanon. In the end, they came to the conclusion that they were powerless to do anything, implying that the US has not done anything to help the process along. Now, the United Nations Security Council is the only agency that can stop the escalation.

                    "...The Middle East peace process is "dead," Arab League Secretary-General Amr Moussa said on Saturday.

                    "Certain powers have given Israel every capacity to do whatever it wishes," and that had hit hopes for peace, he told a news conference after a heated meeting of Arab League foreign ministers in Cairo, Egypt.

                    Only the United Nations Security Council had the power to do anything about the crisis now, he said....

                    "...On the Lebanese front, Israeli warplanes struck key ports, the capital Beirut and the border area near Syria to cut off all routes in and out of the nation. Hezbollah launched scores of rockets from Lebanon into Israel on Saturday, the fourth day of violence.

                    Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora on Saturday declared the attacks had had turned his country into a "disaster zone".

                    Siniora calling for an immediate cease-fire and international help to stop attacks from what he called Israel's "war machine," according to CNN's translation.

                    He said Israel was "punishing all Lebanese collectively, with their actions lacking any moral or legal legitimacy."

                    It's becoming another humanitarian crisis.

                    Miulang
                    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      "We'll get you to Cyprus, then you're on your own"

                      The current evacuation plans for the 25,000 Americans trapped in Lebanon consist of an "air bridge" (probably military helicopters) to ferry people from Beirut to Cyprus. Unfortunately, once the refugees get there, they have to pay for their own way off the island, and if they don't have the funds, the US State Department will "loan" them the money.

                      Why is it that we, the taxpayers, can spend millions every day on our occupation of Iraq, and yet we can't use our tax money to get our own citizens home to America safely?

                      I remember the newsclips showing the last American citizens to leave Saigon when it fell to the Communists...and so it comes around again.

                      Miulang
                      "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: The "Real" Middle Eastern War...

                        Why is Israel being forced on Palestine?
                        You mean, besides the fact that that land is Jewish ancestral land from thousands of years ago?

                        The trouble is, there are several groups of people who all lay claim to the same land. If you go read a little about Jerusalem, you'll learn that there are Islamic mosques on top of Christian churches on top of Jewish temples, all on the same half-acre.

                        Giving Jews space in a country in which their co-religionists were murdered in the millions by a German regime is one of the screwier ideas I've ever read.
                        http://www.linkmeister.com/wordpress/

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                        • #42
                          ersatz nation "Israel" in Palestine , Re: The "Real" Middle Eastern War...

                          -
                          Linkmeister= --"You mean, besides the fact that that land is Jewish ancestral land from thousands of years ago?" --

                          Besides the tenuous facts and profound myths, and, on top of the fact of "thousands of years ago"? Yes, absolutely.

                          ........... ---- .....
                          --"...there are Islamic mosques on top of Christian churches on top of Jewish temples, all on the same half-acre."--
                          So your saying: " Raze the Islamic mosques and rebuild ______ _____ . " ?Rebuild what? The Christian churches or the Jewish temples ? You got some blueprints for your plan, or is it the razing of the mosques that is your immediate concern with of the moment?

                          ........... ---- .....
                          --" Giving Jews space in a country in which their co-religionists were murdered in the millions by a German regime is one of the screwier ideas I've ever read."--

                          Seems your got stuck on that, so let's rephrase it:

                          Why not a demilitarized Israel in the United States? Why did not/do not not those of the pro-Zionazi West purchase some real estate for establishing a non-militaristic Israel? Why is super-militarized Israel being forced on Palestine? On the Middle East? Was it Arabs and Persians and Moslems of the Middle East who perpetrated holocaust on Jews?!! No!! Of course not!! It was Nazi Germany and British and American and French and Spanish anti-Ashkenazi Jew political power elites with their racists followings who perpetrated or otherwise enabled holocaust of Jews of Europe and Euroasia. Their nations should be called upon to forfeit real estate on which to create "Israel", not Palestine, not the Middle East. Until and even after U.S./England powers of pro-Zionazi-in-Palestine persuasion deigned to forcibly establish the ersatz nation "Israel" in Palestine, Jews (not yet added to by Ashkenazi and Slavic Zionazi Jews of course) have lived throughout the Middle East and Persia and most other Muslim nations for centuries, peoples of Judaic beliefs were not persecuted in scapegoating pogroms and "Final Solution"s as they were in Europe and Euroasia.
                          Last edited by waioli kai; July 16, 2006, 08:25 AM.

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                          • #43
                            Re: The "Real" Middle Eastern War...

                            You know, if you don't know what archaeology has told us about that region and its inhabitants, I suppose it's excusable to make arguments that Jews didn't live there. Wrong, but excusable.

                            Why you think that the Zionist movement which began in the late 1800s would have been satisfied with land in Europe or in America (I can imagine the anti-immigration crowd yelping about that) rather than its ancestral land is beyond me.
                            http://www.linkmeister.com/wordpress/

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                            • #44
                              Re: ersatz nation "Israel" in Palestine , Re: The "Real" Middle Eastern War...

                              -
                              --Linkmeister= " You know, if you don't know what archaeology has told us about that region and its inhabitants, I suppose it's excusable to make arguments that Jews didn't live there. Wrong, but excusable.--

                              Justifying the Middle East militant Zionizt terrorist, rogue nation which you call "Israel", others call Ersatz Israel/ Israel in Palestine/ Ersatzion/ on archaelogical excavations and "scientific", Judeocentric extrapolations would be laughable were Zionizt militarist actions predicated on such racistic, theocratic supremacy not so immoral and criminal!
                              -- "Why you think that the Zionist movement which began in the late 1800s would have been satisfied with land in Europe or in America rather than its ancestral land is beyond me.

                              It's beyond you because you are in over your head, you have not enough knowledge on the matter (e.g., Theodor Herzl, the sole founder of "Zionism", read what he wrote and spoke about before he died) to buoy your opinion out of the fallaciousness of prejudice, out of the speciousness of Anti-anti-Semitism*, or some such sophistic ideology permeated through and through with prejudical irrationalizations.

                              * Now that's a good one: two ideologies, anti-Semitism and Anti-anti-Semitism created by the same mindset. Maybe it's time for that mindset to exlain what is the ideology of Semitism? What is Semitism? Is it militarist? capitalist? democratic? racist? Whatever else Semitism is or is not, it is solely, specifically Jewish, yes or no?
                              Last edited by waioli kai; July 16, 2006, 10:15 AM.

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                              • #45
                                Re: ersatz nation "Israel" in Palestine , Re: The "Real" Middle Eastern War...

                                Perhaps waioli kai could clarify his/her position with a simple yes or no answer to this question: Do you wish to see Israel destroyed?

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