New smoking ban

[AlohaKine]

Re: New smoking ban

Nobody asks for anything negative including smoke getting in one's eyes, nose and throat.

Isn't there anything you can do to have fun in life other than to smoke? Having fun and the freedom to do things is one of the things we can do but it has to be in a way that doesn't hurt others in the process like kids who can't control their environments. If you don't like this law then please think about those who will be impacted by your smoking. Kids are one of them, pregnant women are another, people with respiratory illnesses.

Smoking is bad...you know that...it's also expensive, like auto racing, it's risky and an expensive hobby, but you see racers do it on approved race tracks not on public streets where it can be dangerous for innocent bystanders. For those who do race on our public streets they are considered being disrespectful and arrogant to the well-being of others.

For a long time smokers have been viewed that way by the rest of the non-smoking public but because there was no law against public smoking there wasn't much that could be done. Now there is and it's the non-smokers turn to get back at all those decades of smokers who decide to make the air around others bad to breathe.

FACTS: Smoking is bad for your health, the public's majority don't smoke, if businesses fail, so be it. Businesses like that have no business killing it's patrons.

And if having fun equates to smoking then you really need to get out and experience what life has to offer in the form of fun. Kids have fun all the time and they don't need to smoke. You're not a kid? Okay they are so think of them the next time you light up in their vicinity.

Oh you don't light up near kids? Why? Is it because you know it's bad for their health? If it's bad for them, then you should also realize it's bad for you as well.

There's one word for that epiphany and that word is: DUH!!

I didn't know that kids are now welcomed in bars? I thought they were for adults who consent to work there or drink there. You said you don't care if businesses fail - how'ed you like to loose your livelyhood? That's very mean to say that, but of course the antis feel the same way - disgusting.

Why can't they at least give us our own totally seperate areas or establishments? Because they want to force me to quit. I'm not going to get lead around by the nose by some anti-smoking punks. I have dignity.

As for finding other things, how about telling a surfer that he can't surf on any beaches on the island except for waterpark wave generators, say it is a safety issue. He should just abandon surfing and do something else because the government says so and he doesn't fit the mold of the " perfect citizen".

"Killing Patrons", come on, I haven't seen one drop dead yet. If their so sensitive to air quality, they better avoid other breathing "death traps" like walking around the traffic jammed streets of Honolulu breathing in all that toxic exhaust.

[Deep Thought]

Re: New smoking ban

The enforcement issue was discussed during legislative hearings, and the lawmakers know that the reality is that in many instances, first laws are passed, then enforcement comes afterward. It is not the most efficient method, but that is the method Hawaii employs for many new laws.

Oh I know, that's reality for ya . It just comes across as an unfunded mandate though. If someone were to ask me whether I want cops writing tickets for real crimes (theft, murder, etc.) or writing smoking tickets then I say leave the smokers be. When it comes to enforcement it's something of a zero-sum game, unless you elect to increase the resources available to enforcement agencies invariably they will make choices as to what laws they will enforce.

[AlohaKine]

Re: New smoking ban

I heard at least one smoker already got fined. The cop caught the smoker closer than 20 ft away. The person got a $50 fine and another $50 fine for littering when the smoker put it out on the ground. Guess what, NOTHING happened to the bar they were in front of - told Ya. If I'm going to get fined, better at least to get fined sitting at the bar, where I'm comfortable.

[timkona]

Re: New smoking ban

It's hilarious to watch a smoker outside the MAUKA entrance at a bar in the evening, when the mauka winds start drifting down the hill. Smoke rolls right in and out the back door (downhill).

Smokers get a kick out of it. A little mean spirited fun. Too funny.

[SouthKona]

Re: New smoking ban

The entertainment value of this thread is going up and up, proportionate to the postings that are made with bogus stats and "I've heard a story about" claims. I personally hope that the bill DOES come before the legislature again, because it would be too funny to watch the "wanna's" testify with their "boo hoos" and "hey, the friend of my cousin says.." .

[AlohaKine]

Re: New smoking ban

Let's work to end the Hawaii Smoke Free law !

I am a member of the new group, Hawaii Pro-Smokers Alliance. If you, an owner, or a friend would like to help fight this ban, recieve my groups petition, or attend a future rally, send me a private message. The group consists or patrons, owners, and right minded citizens.

[Miulang]

Re: New smoking ban

I'm sure the anti-smoking ban proponents will claim that Hawai'i is somehow "different" from all other states and municipalities that have imposed the ban and discovered that economically, such a ban has not caused widespread economic disaster with bars and restaurants losing significant amounts of money due to the ban; in fact, the findings indicate that revenues did not decline (they either stayed the same or increased) one year after a no-smoking ban was imposed. (if you actually go to the link, you can see what the results were for the States and municipalities that did impose smoking bans).

May 2005

All legitimate economic impact studies on business show either no economic effect or a positive one after a smokefree law goes into effect. When the issue of smokefree air arises, the tobacco industry will work hard to create dissent and fear. Their goal is to convince business owners and residents that the sky will fall if a smokefree law passes. Since 1987, the tobacco industry and smokefree opponents have consistently claimed that smokefree laws lead to a decrease in business in restaurants, bars, bingo halls, and billiard halls, usually by 20-50%, with an accompanying decrease in employment. These claims are totally unfounded. On the contrary, the number of peer-reviewed economic studies showing that smokefree laws have either no economic effect, or a positive one, continues to mount as more communities pass and implement strong smokefree laws.

Miulang

P.S. For the pro-smoking (anti-smoking ban) lobby, you might want to Google "effects of no smoking ban on bars and restaurants" or "economic impacts of smoking ban on bars and restaurants" and see for yourself. This fairly recent report from the State of MN is interesting, too (and pretty much says even though there may be some differences between communities, the general effect of no smoking bans does not appear to adversely impact the overall economic health of bars and restaurants).

[AlohaKine]

Re: New smoking ban

The link is for "Americans for Nonsmokers rights". Clearly a biased, agenda driven source. Do you think that they would show any significant findings that would hurt their cause. They would either hide the data, manipulate or dilute the data, or attempt to blame some other factor. Dept's of health, the CDC, EPA, and the medical community are also biased, but by reading their material, they are slightly less so than the active tobacco hate groups. These are also the media's primary source of data - all one sided.

To be fair the tobacco companies have also been accused of this, mainly by their enemies. The truth is that most data on these bans that is made public is produced by one far side of the spectrum or the other, since it is a polarized political issue. For example if you wanted a fair opinion on George W Bush would you go to moveon.org or "veterans for truth" to learn about John Kerry.

The only way to know for sure is to talk directly with the owners that are forced into the middle of the issue. That's what we have done. And yes a few places ( about 10% ) were cool with the ban and have seen no loss of business. Most want it repealed and are already feeling the pain. It seems like the ban has landed harder and faster than intended. The antis must be happy, they expected more cheating to occur.

A question on "peer reviewed", who were the peers, other members of the groups I stated? Government agencies that got "grants" from the antis?

[Miulang]

Re: New smoking ban

The town of Olathe, KS, has also just instituted a no-smoking ban for all businesses and restaurants and bars EXCEPT for those classified as Class A or B establishments. Perhaps your group should be examining ways to set up this kind of exemption for those bars that want to continue to allow smoking rather than trying to strike down the law completely. In the case of Olathe, the law is being enforced by the FIRE DEPARTMENT, not the Health Dept.

When does the ordinance go into effect?
The ordinance will go into effect on November 16, 2006 after its passage of all and any amendments and publication as required by law.

What types of businesses are impacted by this ordinance?
The ordinance affects all types of businesses with the exception of Class A and B private clubs. The Clean Indoor Air Ordinance not only bans smoking in restaurants and bars, but also in all indoor places of employment.

What businesses are exempt?
The only businesses exempted by the ordinance are private clubs with a "Class A or B" license, specialty tobacco stores and 25% of hotel and motel guest rooms.

Can I smoke outside a bar or restaurant?
Yes, as long as you remain at least 10 feet from doors and windows.

Information About Private Clubs

Distinction between Class A and B private clubs
Drinking establishments must meet percentage of sales requirements for food and liquor. This is not required for private clubs. Private clubs must adhere to membership requirements. The difference between the categories of private clubs are: Class A clubs (Fraternal/Veteran/Social Clubs as identified in organizational bylaws) are not for profit and Class B clubs are for profit.

Reciprocal membership between private clubs
Reciprocal memberships are permitted. A current list of all members and their residence addresses must be maintained on the private club premises. A guest book is not required unless the private club has entered into a reciprocal agreement with another private club and copies of the agreement are filed with the Division of Alcoholic Beverage Control.

Miulang

P.S. I have yet to see studies that actually had information from States and municipalities that the smoking ban actually hurt a State or municipality's eating and drinking establishments economically. So please, AlohaKine, try to make a believer out of me and scrape up a few stats not from Tobacco.org that prove otherwise.

[Bard]

Re: New smoking ban

Funny to see this thread come up again, we just watched Thank You for Smoking the other night

[Miulang]

Re: New smoking ban

In the HRS Chapter 281 of the Liquor Laws of Hawai'i, there exists a type of license that is the equivalent of a private club:

Class 6. Club licenses. A club license shall be general only (but excluding alcohol) and shall authorize the licensee to sell liquors to members of the club and to guests of the club enjoying the privileges of membership, for consumption only on the premises kept and operated by the club; provided that the license shall also authorize any club member to keep in the member’s private locker on the premises a reasonable quantity of liquor, if owned by the member, for the member’s own personal use and not to be sold and that may be consumed only on the premises.

Why doesn't the pro-smoking group try to use this category for bars that want to continue to allow smoking for its patrons (I know it would be a pain in the okole to reapply for a license, but then, so is trying to fight a law)? Or maybe try to modify it so that the member doesn't have to store his/her own liquor at the club but can buy liquor by the drink. I think modifying a current law would be easier than trying to get rid of it completely.

Miulang

P.S. I would think that the "exclusivity" of such clubs would actually be an economic benefit to the establishments who held that license, because anyone who was a member obviously wants to be there and has paid for the privilege of being there. And you wouldn't run into the problem of having a do gooder report you to the authorities if you violated the law.

[Palolo Joe]

Re: New smoking ban

If the "private club" is owned and operated by a single individual, that might work.

But if the owner hires employees, the "private club" becomes a workplace and is affected by the new no-smoking law.

The new law is a nuisance and needs to be repealed.

[AlohaKine]

Re: New smoking ban

Miulang says;

P.S. I have yet to see studies that actually had information from States and municipalities that the smoking ban actually hurt a State or municipality's eating and drinking establishments economically. So please, AlohaKine, try to make a believer out of me and scrape up a few stats not from Tobacco.org that prove otherwise.[/QUOTE]

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...89/detail.html a news channel talks about the new ban's effect on Colorado bars. Sounds similar to what stand alone bars are facing in Hawaii right now. By the way their ban is less strict and allows adjacent patios and a few more business exceptions.

[Miulang]

Re: New smoking ban

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...89/detail.html a news channel talks about the new ban's effect on Colorado bars. Sounds similar to what stand alone bars are facing in Hawaii right now. By the way their ban is less strict and allows adjacent patios and a few more business exceptions.

That's quite a story, AlohaKine. Imagine...having all your "outdoor smoking seats" being taken by pushers, hookers and pimps! LOL. Since their smoking ban has only been in effect for about 5 months (and the date of that newsstory is about 3 weeks after the ban was imposed), it doesn't surprise me that business dropped off for some establishments in the first few weeks. My guess is that if that Denver TV station went out and surveyed that same establishment next July (if it's still there), that they will have a different opinion of the smoking ban. Sure, maybe not all establishments will survive, but maybe the ones that don't survive are ones who wouldn't have survived anyway (e.g. they would have gone under if there was high unemployment in that part of town, too). It's a business with small margins to begin with.

Find me similar stories from establishments in States or municipalities that are still complaining one year after the implementation of a smoking ban.

Miulang

[AlohaKine]

Re: New smoking ban

The "Aloha United Way" an organization that has done so much good for our community in the past has disgraced itself with the 211 smoking rat out line.

They have admitted to me that they have been "contracted" [ bought out ] by the Hawaii Department of Health using taxpayer funds. The DOH is in direct and full partership with extremist groups like clearthesmoke.org and Hawaii smoke free under the Coalition for tobacco free Hawaii. These are extreme POLITICAL groups that make their livings off of hate.

The Aloha United Way should NOT allow itself to be owned by groups with political agendas which seek to marginalize, harass, and debase a productive, hardworking large segment of society just because they smoke. Please call them and urge them to end this "contract" and put this portion of their efforts into helping people in real need.

P.S. I think the United Way is a good organization that has stumbled into a very poor choice. All that is needed is for them to correct this error.