Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 4

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 4

I do not know of any "highly modified" airplanes at Aloha. I think Joshua said that though, not Star

Post #9 by Star.

I met a Aloha mechanic once at La Marianas who explained to me how the Aloha 737s are highly modified to take a serious beating and the problem now will never be metal fatigue again.

[MatildaRose]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 3

So you must have an inside source at the NTSB then! When I type in the N number in their database the investigation is still in its preliminary phase. http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...31X00119&key=1
Either way, manufacturing or maintenance, i still don't want to fly in the little death traps.

BTW, some AQ airplanes **DO** have the unpaved strip kit. Many of the recent "newer" 200's Aloha bought are the old Alaska Airlines "mud hens" that did the Alaska bush flying and already had the gravel kits. Still not tough enough apparently. http://hnlrarebirds.blogspot.com/200...as-n841al.html
http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/A...story-b737.htm

The old JT8's are virtually indestructible. I also remember they can handle birdstrikes like no other. Newer CFM's need a boroscope at a bare minimum if they suck in a single bird. Thats several hours of work at the minimum. The JT8 is good after a visual inspection of the fan blades. 5 minutes max.

Boeings sales records further prove the 737 is the best selling aircraft of all time.

Apologies if this info has been posted before, but this is my experience. You mentioned "death traps." I felt the same way after the Aloha Airlines disaster in 1988 (Boeing 737-200). I remember watching the news and being utterly stunned -- more stunned as the facts became known.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:A...esdisaster.jpg

If this wasn't a death trap, I don't know what else would qualify. Sheesh, a passenger noticed cracks in the fuselage, which begs the question: Where were the maintenance people looking during routine inspections? I didn't fly Aloha for many years because of a low confidence level in the safety of their planes. A Google search will reveal that the NTSB determined that basic, standard aircraft inspections by Aloha Airlines were not performed. Who knows for how long? For this reason (among a few others), Aloha has been my second (now third) choice!

[Star of Gladness]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 3

Apologies if this info has been posted before, but this is my experience. You mentioned "death traps." I felt the same way after the Aloha Airlines disaster in 1988 (Boeing 737-200). I remember watching the news and being utterly stunned -- more stunned as the facts became known.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:A...esdisaster.jpg

If this wasn't a death trap, I don't know what else would qualify. Sheesh, a passenger noticed cracks in the fuselage, which begs the question: Where were the maintenance people looking during routine inspections? I didn't fly Aloha for many years because of a low confidence level in the safety of their planes. A Google search will reveal that the NTSB determined that basic, standard aircraft inspections by Aloha Airlines were not performed. Who knows for how long? For this reason (among a few others), Aloha has been my second (now third) choice!

I feel that disaster was Aloha's finest moment. Two superior pilots were able to take a complete wreck and aviate it back to the ground safely. The only loss of like was the poor flight attendant.

The crew was exemplary and rather than the evidence being on the bottom of the Alenuihaha Channel, the flight crew saving the day allowed the ICAO and FAA to bring to light industry wide metal fatigue problems and revolutionize the industry GLOBALLY.

Tiny little Aloha saving one airplane revolutionized aviation worldwide. I met Mimi Tompkins once, she was the Captain of my inter-island flight many years ago. I told her it was an honor to meet her and thanked her for what she did for aviation. She is a hero.

[MatildaRose]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 3

I feel that disaster was Aloha's finest moment. Two superior pilots were able to take a complete wreck and aviate it back to the ground safely. The only loss of like was the poor flight attendant.

The crew was exemplary and rather than the evidence being on the bottom of the Alenuihaha Channel, the flight crew saving the day allowed the ICAO and FAA to bring to light industry wide metal fatigue problems and revolutionize the industry GLOBALLY.

Tiny little Aloha saving one airplane revolutionized aviation worldwide. I met Mimi Tompkins once, she was the Captain of my inter-island flight many years ago. I told her it was an honor to meet her and thanked her for what she did for aviation. She is a hero.

Aloha's finest moment? I suppose that's where we differ in our view, although you do recognize Mimi Tompkins for the hero she is. Those superior pilots and flight crew saved the day despite Aloha Airlines' negligence. The pilots and flight crew are the true heroes. Aloha Airlines saved no one that day. Those superior employees would have been superior employees no matter which airline they worked for. It was the incident itself and the deficiencies at Aloha that changed aviation worldwide -- not Aloha Airlines. The industry benefitted from Aloha's blunders.

[Star of Gladness]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 3

Aloha's finest moment? I suppose that's where we differ in our view, although you do recognize Mimi Tompkins for the hero she is. Those superior pilots and flight crew saved the day despite Aloha Airlines' negligence. The pilots and flight crew are the true heroes. Aloha Airlines saved no one that day. Those superior employees would have been superior employees no matter which airline they worked for. It was the incident itself and the deficiencies at Aloha that changed aviation worldwide -- not Aloha Airlines. The industry benefitted from Aloha's blunders.

All airlines were negligent pre-AQ243. No airlines checked for metal fatique until after Aloha 243. Now they all do. No action was ever taken against Aloha, but yes, the flight crew were the real heros.

[mel]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 3

All airlines were negligent pre-AQ243. No airlines checked for metal fatique until after Aloha 243. Now they all do. No action was ever taken against Aloha, but yes, the flight crew were the real heros.

And I guess because of that a lot of planes get turned over to other airlines for freighter use or end up in huge junkyards on the mainland, such as this one:

Mojave Desert Boneyard

Old Aloha Airlines 737

More AQ derelicts

How's the worldwide supply for used, Boeing 737-200 jetliners? I am sure the inventory is slowly but surely dwindling with take off and landing cycles ever increasing on whatever inventory is left.

I guess some of the dirt taxiways are in the Mojave.

[GeckoGeek]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 3

And I guess because of that a lot of planes get turned over to other airlines for freighter use or end up in huge junkyards on the mainland, such as this one:

That would be correct. Aloha purged it's inventory of older machines after that.

While there were some deficiencies in Aloha's process, I don't remember if they were sufficient to have found the problem. Incidentally, it was in part a manufacturing defect.

And if you hunt around, you'll find some hold Hawaiian Air planes in those same places.

[mel]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 3

Yes, all of Hawaiian's DC-9s and many DC-10's ended up in the boneyards, though Fed Ex does put DC-10s and MD11's back into service as jet freighters. Hawaiian replaced their entire fleet of planes in the early 2000s. DC9s for Boeing 717s, DC10s for Boeing 767s, all newer planes than the same old 737-200s being bought on the used market by Aloha.

Mid Pac's old YS-11s; several ended up being scrapped right here in Honolulu. Planes gutted and sunk off Waikiki to create artificial reefs.

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 3

While there were some deficiencies in Aloha's process, I don't remember if they were sufficient to have found the problem. Incidentally, it was in part a manufacturing defect.

This is the official cause of accident per NTSB.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was the failure of the Aloha Airlines maintenance program to detect the presence of significant disbonding and fatigue damage which ultimately led to failure of the lap joint a S-10L and the separation of the fuselage upper lobe. Contributing to the accident were the failure of Aloha Airlines management to supervise properly its maintenance force; the failure of the FAA to require Airworthiness Directive 87-21-08 inspection of all the lap joints proposed by Boeing Alert Service Bulletin SB 737-53A1039; and the lack of a complete terminating action (neither generated by Boeing nor required by the FAA) after the discovery of early production difficulties in the B-737 cold bond lap joint which resulted in low bond durability, corrosion, and premature fatigue cracking.

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/1989/AAR8903.htm

Aloha maintenance had a huge role in cause of accident. So hats off to the wonderful flight crew, but is it really Aloha's finest moment? I consider an airline's finest moment as an uneventful and safe trip, that's the finest moment.


As for AQ's 737-200 fleet, they are old, no matter how frequently they swap them out. I assume they would be trying to attain planes with lesser number of cycles on them but they really need to pick a new model and move on if they want to stay in business. The oldest plane in their possession for the 200 fleet dates back to 1981 and the youngest 1988, makes sense since Boeing stopped production of 200s in 1988.

http://www.planespotters.net/Airline/Aloha-Airlines

[oceanpacific]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 4

Today Go is selling tickets for $25 each way interisland. Hawaiian has matched. One day sale, travel now to Sept. 30.

Competition is a good thing.... prices have once again gone down from the standard, new basic discount price of $39.

Enjoy the ride.

Got booked on Hawaiian for a RT to the Big Island in mid-September at $61.80 total, including taxes.

[mel]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 4

Got booked on Hawaiian for a RT to the Big Island in mid-September at $61.80 total, including taxes.

Enjoy the ride dude! Have a good trip.

I think most people here like our "local" airlines Hawaiian and Aloha. What we never liked was the high fares charged post 9-11 and up to June 2006. It took an outsider, Mesa / Go to bring competition in and force our local airlines to lower their fares, if not all the time, at least some of the time. For this I am thankful that Mesa/Go is in the marketplace.

[Star of Gladness]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 3

This is the official cause of accident per NTSB.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was the failure of the Aloha Airlines maintenance program to detect the presence of significant disbonding and fatigue damage which ultimately led to failure of the lap joint a S-10L and the separation of the fuselage upper lobe. Contributing to the accident were the failure of Aloha Airlines management to supervise properly its maintenance force; the failure of the FAA to require Airworthiness Directive 87-21-08 inspection of all the lap joints proposed by Boeing Alert Service Bulletin SB 737-53A1039; and the lack of a complete terminating action (neither generated by Boeing nor required by the FAA) after the discovery of early production difficulties in the B-737 cold bond lap joint which resulted in low bond durability, corrosion, and premature fatigue cracking.

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/1989/AAR8903.htm

Aloha maintenance had a huge role in cause of accident. So hats off to the wonderful flight crew, but is it really Aloha's finest moment? I consider an airline's finest moment as an uneventful and safe trip, that's the finest moment.


As for AQ's 737-200 fleet, they are old, no matter how frequently they swap them out. I assume they would be trying to attain planes with lesser number of cycles on them but they really need to pick a new model and move on if they want to stay in business. The oldest plane in their possession for the 200 fleet dates back to 1981 and the youngest 1988, makes sense since Boeing stopped production of 200s in 1988.

http://www.planespotters.net/Airline/Aloha-Airlines

The FAA shared in the blame. It was not entirely Aloha's fault. If it was, such an accident would have shut down Aloha.

How about the America West 757's coming out here ETOPS from Phoenix and Vegas? I understand they are just as old as Aloha's inter-island fleet. At least Aloha keeps their old airplanes close to home.

Didn't US Air or ATA just have an engine failure half way to Hawaii? Those 757's are just as old as Aloha's inter-island airplanes and being used for a much riskier operation. We could much easier pick on them.

At least Aloha uses the State of the art NG 737 for their ETOPS flights. Everybody used to laugh at Aloha for making the 737 ETOPS certified. Now look at the copycats. ATA, (USA) WestJet, (Canada) Alaska, (USA) Air Fiji, (Fiji) Polynesian, (Samoa) even the USAF using a BBJ1 which is the exact same thing as a 737NG. There's others too.

All can and do thank Aloha for working directly with Boeing to make the 737 ETOPS certified.

Tinly little Aloha has done well positively contributing to aviation globally. First they alerted the entire world to metal fatigue issues that were being neglected industry wide. Next they have contributed tousands of hours of research and data to ETOPS certify the Boeing 737. And finally they stuck it out and have not layed down or given in to the lunatics demands.

We are all very lucky Aloha hasn't lost this fight to Mesa.

While throughout history Aloha has contributed to aviation and Hawaii's economy, Mesa is a parasite company. All they have done in their 25 year history is leave a wake of destruction and ruined thousands of lives while the usual suspects at the very top of the food chain buy their large Malibu beach villas and elaborate motorcycle collections and profit off the pumping and dumping of their stock price while now launching multiple offshore holding companies in advance of up coming (unfavorable to Mesa) legal proceedings.

Aloha isn't that bad. The crews are friendly and professional. Only bad thing I can say is the airplane engines are loud! I always know when Aloha is taking off in Honolulu. They arent so bad in the air, just like any other airplane but very smooth.

OK Rant off.

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 3

The FAA shared in the blame. It was not entirely Aloha's fault. If it was, such an accident would have shut down Aloha.

Yes, that's why I said AQ had a huge role, I didn't say sole role.

How about the America West 757's coming out here ETOPS........There's others too.

And no one has stopped ya, bash away. But I figure since this thread's about the interisland carriers, I just stick with them but again, bash away.

All can and do thank Aloha for working directly with Boeing to make the 737 ETOPS certified.

That's interesting, I don't see Boeing saying anything bout this partnership?

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/...e_990914a.html

First they alerted the entire world to metal fatigue issues that were being neglected industry wide.

Wow, do you work for the White House Press? You just won't stop with the propaganda sales pitch huh? So AQ alerts the world of metal fatigue issues by planning to go convertible in mid-flight?

[Miulang]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 4

An interview with go!'s Jonathan Ornstein in this month's Hawai'i Business Magazine.

As I hypothesized at the time when go! was just starting service, even Ornstein agrees that at around $75 per seat, he and the other airline companies could be breaking even instead of being run into the ground by the current airfare wars.

On what he would charge if he were the only carrier

Well, I think it would be crazy for us to charge anything above a fair rate of return. Because when you do start charging fares of $100 one way, it attracts competition. Once you get to the point you are charging so much, it will attract competition like us.

We feel confident with our fare structure, with our normal selling fare of $39 to $79, we can make money. And I can assure you if tomorrow I was hit by a bus and the new CEO decided to take the four airplanes out, those fares would be right back up to $100 the next day.

Miulang

P.S. Speaking of Mesa and CRJ700's, apparently the landing gear door fell off a United Express flight from Hartford, CT to Washington, DC that was operated by Mesa Airlines last Saturday. Freaked out a woman who was walking her dogs when she saw the metal piece. She was a little disappointed later to find out that the object wasn't from a UFO, though. (The plane was able to land safely).

[Star of Gladness]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 3

That's interesting, I don't see Boeing saying anything bout this partnership?

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/...e_990914a.html

Thats because you arent trying hard enough.

On the Boeing Milestones page. look at the date on Feb 14th, 2000

Although Boeing takes all the credit, Boeing used data from the pre-existing 120 ETOPS certification on the 737-200's that were going down to Majuro and Christmas, which BTW Aloha also pioneered. (120 ETOPS via Johnston) It was Aloha's extensive twin engine over water data that went into the 180 NG certification.

After Aloha got their 737NG's ETOPS certified, Boeing hired the Aloha people that did all the work. So, Boeing took all the credit and managed to recruit some of Aloha's best talent in the process.

This is pretty common knowledge, ask anybody at the airport.