Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 4

[Star of Gladness]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 4

An interview with go!'s Jonathan Ornstein in this month's Hawai'i Business Magazine.

As I hypothesized at the time when go! was just starting service, even Ornstein agrees that at around $75 per seat, he and the other airline companies could be breaking even instead of being run into the ground by the current airfare wars.

What a hipocrite! The airfare wars is his responsibility! He isn't here to make money, he is here to bankrupt Aloha. he doesn't want his "share of the market" he wants all of it. otherwise yes, he would raise the fares.

Well 70% of the people polled so far in that Hawaii Business article seem to agree with us Miulang.

Check this out.

Brand new article in New Mexico paper about how Mesa is "Holding the city hostage" Their words, not mine. Sound familiar Hawaii?

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 3

Thats because you arent trying hard enough.

On the Boeing Milestones page. look at the date on Feb 14th, 2000

Although Boeing takes all the credit, Boeing used data from the pre-existing 120 ETOPS certification on the 737-200's that were going down to Majuro and Christmas, which BTW Aloha also pioneered. (120 ETOPS via Johnston) It was Aloha's extensive twin engine over water data that went into the 180 NG certification.

After Aloha got their 737NG's ETOPS certified, Boeing hired the Aloha people that did all the work. So, Boeing took all the credit and managed to recruit some of Aloha's best talent in the process.

This is pretty common knowledge, ask anybody at the airport.

You didn't really look at the Boeing link I sent you, did you? Let's just go with your milestone link.

2/14/00 - Aloha begins first 180 ETOPS service with 737NG.
9/1/99 - 737NGs are certified for 180 ETOPS by Boeing.

As you say, "Boeing takes all the credit." That pretty much sums it up.

[GeckoGeek]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 3

This is the official cause of accident per NTSB.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was the failure of the Aloha Airlines maintenance program to detect the presence of significant disbonding and fatigue damage which ultimately led to failure

There are a few different ways to read that. I wouldn't necessarily conclude that Aloha was "at fault". Yes, they found problems. It's not all that unusual when things are put under the microscope that a few discrepancies are found. The question is, were they material to missing the fault? And if those problems didn't exist, would the program have found the disbonding given the regulations and state of knowledge at that time?

[808shooter]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 4

Hoo booey,

This thread is still going strong with a new staunch Aloha and Hawaiian pilot chiming in.

The Aloha-Hawaiian-Go situation is so similiar to many other business competitive dramas that have played out over the years.

New businesses come to town all the time here in Hawaii and force our "local" businesses to be competitive in order to survive. The winners are EVERYONE - with better service and better pricing. Competion is good.

Who doesn't own a Costco card? Who in thier right mind would say, Let's keep that damned Costco out of Hawaii and support GEM of Hawaii or Woolworths? Competition comes in and our local business' either become more efficient or find a niche or disappear. The consumer doesn't lose either way. Costco hasn't raised prices. They have a good thing going at this price point and want to keep competitors at bay.

Look at Bank of Hawaii, 1st Hawaiian and American Savings. Did they shrivel up and go away when Bank of America moved into town? Huge multistate banking corporation with almost unlimited resources. Guess what, the local banks adapted, got even more competitive and kicked their asses. Has the consumer lost since Bank of America went away? Nope. Still lots of competition.

Aloha and Hawaiian are a little different, there has been a lot of competition that has come to town over the years only to be run out of town by the big two. Afterwards, unfortunately, the consumer has lost. Service is still good but prices do go up. Bigtime. So in this situation, I'll be supporting Go! just to see if the survivors try to keep the competition going - what the hell - it can't be worse than if Aloha and Hawaiian win.

Prices would go up for sure then.

[Star of Gladness]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 4

Hoo booey,

This thread is still going strong with a new staunch Aloha and Hawaiian pilot chiming in.

The Aloha-Hawaiian-Go situation is so similiar to many other business competitive dramas that have played out over the years.

New businesses come to town all the time here in Hawaii and force our "local" businesses to be competitive in order to survive. The winners are EVERYONE - with better service and better pricing. Competion is good.

I support AQ & HAL only because I am a frequent flyer, not an employee.

Go! survives by snaring the occasional un-informed flyer who gets out maybe once a year or once every few years and is not expected to understand or care.

Of course there will always be a select minority of people who will always hate on AQ & HA. This minority might make up go!'s frequent flyer base but this was not Mesa's intention. Mesa had much bigger plans than being a boutique airline catering only to a select minority of disgruntled AQ & HA passengers and the occasional uninformed traveler who stumbles upon iflygo.com.

[Star of Gladness]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 4

This is a fabulous Hawaii forum here dedicated to travelers. The people who post here are frequent flyers from all over the world who make "getting the best deal" a true art form. Before I fly anywhere on Earth I consult Flyer Talk first.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=447
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=435

Good stuff in there. Not too much love for Mesa or go! either.

[Miulang]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 4

Brand new article in New Mexico paper about how Mesa is "Holding the city hostage"

Mesa appears to be doing this in a lot of little towns in the Southwest and Illinois. They announce they are ending service and then apply for essential air service status so they get paid by the feds to fly even if there is only one passenger. Here is one example: Mesa applied for EAS status for service between Almagordo and Roswell, NM and Phoenix in 2001, and now they are saying they are discontinuing service to both Almagordo and Roswell (EAS certificates are usually only good for one or two years and then they have to be renewed).

Miulang

[escondido100]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 4

instead of getting mad at the new players that offer competition we should be angry with the local businesses that have kept prices higher than they need to be......instead of adapting to the world getting smaller they have held their ground and defended their high prices...... these new players be it costco...home depot...lowes....go...etc have studied those high prices before moving to this market realizing that they will have an edge.
when trying to get a part from a local auto dealer...they told me 4 weeks and 400.00....."has to come from L.A." i was told....so i called a dealer in LA and got the part in 3days and paid 250.00.. this is just one example of many that we can all think of.....we should be angry at ourselves for letting this happen to us.....and the local vendors that continue to rip us off......
KTA has folgers coffee for 12.00 for two pounds, delicat cat food for 7.50
safeway has the coffee for 9.00 and the cat food for 3.99
you know kta is aware of safways prices...they dont care.....they are gouging us......aloha and hawaiian have done the same thing for years and blaming everyone but their own greed....GO while not being everyones favoruite outsider is at least forcing their hands to be more competitive....

[mel]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 4

The people who are opposed to Go's entry into the market just don't understand the benefits true competition brings to the marketplace. As the previous poster noted, Go's arrival in the Hawaii market has forced HA, AQ and even Island Air to bring their prices down. And for many interisland travelers that is all that matters.

As Mr. Ornstein pointed out in the Hawaii Business article referenced in an earlier post, none of the incumbent airlines are being forced to bring their prices down. He stated, "No one has a gun to their heads that says they have to match our fares."

But since both Hawaiian and Aloha are playing Go's game, I take advantage of the lower price on the incumbent airline like many other people do. Flying for $39, $29, $19 or $9 is way better than forking over $79 or $115 each way if Go was not around.

The low price is the bottom line and that is what matters the most in this otherwise expensive, island marketplace.

Thanks Go for giving a break to the consumers in the market. We all know the prices are not forever, but while they are low we will continue to enjoy the ride.

[mel]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 4

go! Offers $19 fares for travel thru Thursday

go!Miles members are being offered unadvertised reduced interisland airfares of $19 and $29 for travel to and from Honolulu today through Thursday.

The fares have no minimum stay requirement and are available for one-way or combined for roundtrip travel.

Hawaiian Airlines has matched this offer.

Geez... Aloha has also matched.

"No one has a gun to their heads that says they have to match our fares." - Jon Ornstein.

Competition is good. Enjoy the ride.

[Star of Gladness]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 4

"No one has a gun to their heads that says they have to match our fares." - Jon Ornstein.

You are quoting a madman. Airlines must match. Price is the only factor for most travelers and if hawaiian and Aloha dont match they will die.

Here Jonathan Ornstein blames HA & AQ for his low passenger counts and calls THEM irrational and predatory!

"There's been a lot of additional capacity put into the market in an effort to thwart competition," Ornstein said. "If there hadn't been that capacity, which was clearly irrational, (the mid-70s) is where we would be. I think their view may be that they can throw up barriers and that we may be chased out, but that's not going to happen. I think, ultimately, our existence will be accepted and our operations will work the way we expected it."... If anybody is operating in a predatory or anticompetitive manner, it would be them."

Nobody put a gun to Jonathan Ornsteins head and forced him to start war with two entrenched and well funded airlines. Now Jonathan Ornstein sounds like a crybaby. he knows the rules. Match or die.

Airlines must match, Jonathan Ornstein sounds like a bullshitter extraordinaire when he says AQ & HA dont need to match. Of course they need to match. Thats the way the game is played. Don't hate the players. Suck it up JO.

[Miulang]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 4

I think Hawai'i is small potatoes for Ornstein compared to his next conquest: China.

East Phoenix-based Mesa Air partnered with Shenzhen Airlines to create the regional carrier, which will have 20 50-seat jets prior to the 2008 Summer Olympics in Beijing, Ornstein said.

He said Kunpeng could eventually grow to a 200-plane operation. That's the current size of Mesa Air's whole fleet today, said Paul Skellon, company spokesman.

"There's a lot of opportunity there," Ornstein said. "There are 1.4 billion people (in China), and air travel is in its infancy. There are fewer regional jets in China than in Chicago."

"There may be a day when Mesa will be a China(-based) airline," he added.

Miulang

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 4

I think Hawai'i is small potatoes for Ornstein compared to his next conquest:

That may not happen as China is placing a moratorium on growth of airlines.

Don't hate the players. Suck it up JO.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, suck it up AQ & HA.

[Miulang]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 4

That may not happen as China is placing a moratorium on growth of airlines.

I dunno about that, but I do know that China Southern Airlines just recently placed an order for 55 Boeing 737s.

Then Shenzhen Airlines formed the joint venture partnership with Mesa called Kupeng Airlines and is planning a $1 billionUS IPO sometime next year.

Maybe the whole thing will collapse like a house of cards after next year's Olympic Games in Beijing, but a lot of American companies are planning to make money while the sun shines (all except for SBUX, which closed down their Forbidden City store).

Miulang

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 4

I dunno about that, but I do know that China Southern Airlines just recently placed an order for 55 Boeing 737s.

Then Shenzhen Airlines formed the joint venture partnership with Mesa called Kupeng Airlines and is planning a $1 billionUS IPO sometime next year.

Maybe the whole thing will collapse like a house of cards after next year's Olympic Games in Beijing, but a lot of American companies are planning to make money while the sun shines (all except for SBUX, which closed down their Forbidden City store).

Miulang

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20297896/

So far, it's just Beijing but it all depends on how things play out.