School Bullying

[Leo Lakio]

Re: School Bullying

wow so you resort to personal attacks instead of the substance of my argument.

Says the person who has used the following terms to describe people with whom you disagree:
- liars
- disgusting
- quisling
- treasonous
- cowardly
- disrespectful
- fanatics
- subversive
- traitors

Reap what you sow.

[stumphurple]

Re: School Bullying

right but the point you conveinently dont mention is that those terms are relevant to the discussion. when talking about propagandists and anti american activists those words are quite appropriate, especially since i point out why the term applies. you just made a grammatical comment and then dropped the basic argument. theres a difference.

i am not particularly offended at the fact you criticize my grammar. i am offended at the fact that your non sequitur responds to nothing i argued. in fact you still are ducking the major questions:

WHY ARE HAWAII PUBLIC SCHOOLS CESSPOOLS OF FAILURE? WHAT CAN WE DO ABOUT IT?

[MadAzza]

Re: School Bullying

Stump, this thread is about school bullying. I suggest you start another thread if you want to discuss "the failure of Hawaii public schools." I'm sure you'd hook a few more that way.

[pzarquon]

Re: School Bullying

Yep. Not surprisingly, public schools as a general topic come up quite a bit.

• Grading the Public Schools - Chapter 2
• Hawaii's Failing Schools
• Public v. Private Schools

Of course you can tie "bullying" to "public schools in general," but frankly you could probably broaden any topic through enough iterations all the way up to "good versus evil." So let's stick with bullying, specifically, here.

IMHO, nitpicking grammar is poor style. But, to Leo's credit, so is using loaded language to describe any differing viewpoint. If you're here to converse, Stump, and not lecture, I suggest you cool it a bit.

Otherwise, we've all seen those "debaters" before. Any disagreement equals anti-American, traitor, marxist, flaming liberal, or just all 'round wuss. Distilling every conversation into black and white, using words like "the other side," or loaded words like the ones Leo excerpted, accomplishes nothing.

Unlike some of my collegues here, I see a lot of notable thoughts in what you're writing... but how you're writing those thoughts is counterproductive. I know you're smart enough to know this, though, which is why I think you've garnered the "troll" label faster than anyone in recent memory. (We've had a few.) Respect, don't belittle, your fellow forum guests' views, and they'll do the same for you -- maybe after they get some ruffled feathers out of their system.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: School Bullying

IMHO, nitpicking grammar is poor style.

Sorry - it's not a point I take recklessly, but in the context of someone discussing flaws in educational systems, I thought it appropriate.
Outside of that, I agree that it can be a cheap shot, even though I do think saying that it's "acceptable internet behavior" to excuse sloppiness in communication is a lazy way out. Erudition may be a dying art to some, but I think it's worth fighting for.

[stumphurple]

Re: School Bullying

Stump, this thread is about school bullying. I suggest you start another thread if you want to discuss "the failure of Hawaii public schools." I'm sure you'd hook a few more that way.

but my point was that if students realized that social prestige came from academic achievement and not simple physical coercion, we would be a long way to countering the bullying problem. i think that implies a change in the whole culture of our public schools. miwa countered that this wasnt a problem because hawaiis public schools already encourage academic excellence. that was the basis of my refutation. in the heat of the argument i neglected to point out these links.

but good idea i may start another thread on that in the near future.

Unlike some of my collegues here, I see a lot of notable thoughts in what you're writing... but how you're writing those thoughts is counterproductive. I know you're smart enough to know this, though, which is why I think you've garnered the "troll" label faster than anyone in recent memory. (We've had a few.) Respect, don't belittle, your fellow forum guests' views, and they'll do the same for you -- maybe after they get some ruffled feathers out of their system.

to the forum then i apologize. i am cursed with a ridiculously scrappy personality that goes for jugulars in arguments. its helped me in some ways. in others [this probably being one] it hasnt. i will ease up the rhetoric a bit even though i still hold my views as strongly as ever.

Outside of that, I agree that it can be a cheap shot, even though I do think saying that it's "acceptable internet behavior" to excuse sloppiness in communication is a lazy way out.

then dont end your sentences with prepositions. j/j

[MadAzza]

Re: School Bullying

but my point was that if students realized that social prestige came from academic achievement and not simple physical coercion, we would be a long way to countering the bullying problem

Ah, I see. Well, you probably have a good point there.

to the forum then i apologize. i am cursed with a ridiculously scrappy personality that goes for jugulars in arguments. its helped me in some ways. in others [this probably being one] it hasnt. i will ease up the rhetoric a bit even though i still hold my views as strongly as ever.

I quoted that for those who have you on "ignore" (even though they might have me on "ignore," too!). Scrappy is good, IMO. I guess I'm a bit sympathetic toward you because I've ruffled a few feathers here, too. But so has everyone else! -- some even by being *too nice*! So you're not "the outsider" or "the rebel" here, although your opinions and the way you throw 'em out there might rub some the wrong way.

Folks here have all kinds of opinions and personalities -- it's a great, fun, diverse group. You might be surprised by some of our viewpoints. Nobody is mindlessly "marching in lock-step" with anyone else.

I look forward to more of our ranting, screaming, yelling and "kissing and making up" in 2006. Wouldn't have it any other way.

OK, I've avoided doing housework long enough. <sigh> Now, where did I put that Swiffer? ...

[pzarquon]

Re: School Bullying

to the forum then i apologize. i am cursed with a ridiculously scrappy personality that goes for jugulars in arguments. its helped me in some ways. in others [this probably being one] it hasnt. i will ease up the rhetoric a bit even though i still hold my views as strongly as ever.

You'll learn strong views are not in short supply here. I also have a feeling that -- hopefully only on topics rather than on personalities -- today won't be the only day things get a little hot 'round these parts.

I will concede an overall tilt to the left, here, but I'll thank you to appreciate that just because someone might advocate one view, they don't immediately fit entirely into a pigeonhole. (It's a tendency we all have, to be sure.) I might be a commie pinko hippy leftist on some fronts, but you'll find I've got some opinions that make my liberal friends want to defenestrate me.

then dont end your sentences with prepositions. j/j

An apology, a worthy zinger, and a smiley. Real progress, I hope!

[Peshkwe]

Re: School Bullying

there are some outstanding public schools [moanalua and kaiser come to mind for high school] but overall hawaiis public schools are cesspools of mediocrity. it is not just bureaucracy either. your passive tone says it all. students are aware that academic excellence is rewarded and some students do make it. however that isnt the norm.

if you wanna see academic excellence in action take a look at some of the suburban schools in the northeast. by fourth grade students are reading shakespeare, working on pre algebra, starting basic chemistry [the pH scale and the periodic table] and regularly writing expository essays. they have sat prep courses. they read the new york times. everyone plays a musical instrument. the honor roll is kept front and center. the students are encouraged to discuss and debate. by the time these kids get to eighth grade they dominate the competition. they go on to ivy or other top tier schools. and then they come to hawaii and tell the local mokes what to do.

i attended a public school for intermediate and then was admitted to a private school. what a difference! it was a whole nother culture. both of the private schools have extremely competitive students, frequent recognition of academic achievement, resources and constant pressure to succeed from parents, peers, teachers. everybody in the school was focused on one thing, making a top flight student. public schools simply dont match that level of dedication. instead they yarn about new report cards and 'standards' blah and oh-those-immigrants-depress-our-reading-scores.

bullying in private schools is not as common because students realize that crude methods like these dont garner any attention. the whole culture of the private school focuses on who controls the trophies not the playground. if hawaiis schools adopted the attitude that every school should be modeled on what works [the privates] they would find themselves quite close to the public schools of the northeast.

if necessary yes militarize the schools. at least the students will find a purpose beyond warming a seat.

Which school (or schools)?

I would like a name or two so I can do my own research..."some schools" tells me squat and leads me to believe you're fabricating your information for effect.

[Lei K]

Re: School Bullying

I know it's a random thing to say but I actually had more problems with the kids/teens on the mainland when I went to school in Southern California than in all my time of elementary in O'ahu. So many of them here were just awful (actually no problems with boys, all mean spirited girls) and made fun of my accent. I was actually sent to speech class for 2 years to try to correct the way I talked. I didn't use heavy pigeon or anything with these kids, heaven knows I tried to constantly fit in. I always missed how I fit in back home, I never felt like I belonged on da mainland, you know?

Of course as an adult it's better but in jr. high/high school everything bad feels like the end of the world. So in my experience bullying was about 100 x worse on the mainland.

[Miulang]

Re: School Bullying

Of course as an adult it's better but in jr. high/high school everything bad feels like the end of the world. So in my experience bullying was about 100 x worse on the mainland.

You were probably bullied by the girls because they couldn't figure out what your ethnic heritage was. Prepubescent teens are a rough bunch to begin with, but they are rougher on kids who don't look, act or talk like them (remember those "cliques"?)

If you had spent your adolescence in school in Hawai'i, you wouldn't have been harrassed. But ask a local haole kid (like Aaron S., who was born in Hawai'i) what it's like to look different than the rest of his classmates growing up on the Big Island, and he would relate pretty much the same experience you had on the Mainland.

Miulang

[stumphurple]

Re: School Bullying

Which school (or schools)?

I would like a name or two so I can do my own research..."some schools" tells me squat and leads me to believe you're fabricating your information for effect.

are you asking for a list of hawaii public schools? or do you mean public schools that are actually succeeding? if you mean the second one, two examples offhand are white plains and just about all the schools in madison county, both in new york state. there's also brookline in massachusetts. vermont and connecticut also have great schools. i could get specific names for you if you like.

[miwa]

Re: School Bullying

but my point was that if students realized that social prestige came from academic achievement and not simple physical coercion, we would be a long way to countering the bullying problem. i think that implies a change in the whole culture of our public schools. miwa countered that this wasnt a problem because hawaiis public schools already encourage academic excellence. that was the basis of my refutation. in the heat of the argument i neglected to point out these links.

What I said was that encouraging academic excellence will not entirely eliminate bullying.

there are some outstanding public schools [moanalua and kaiser come to mind for high school] but overall hawaiis public schools are cesspools of mediocrity. it is not just bureaucracy either. your passive tone says it all. students are aware that academic excellence is rewarded and some students do make it. however that isnt the norm.

if you wanna see academic excellence in action take a look at some of the suburban schools in the northeast. by fourth grade students are reading shakespeare, working on pre algebra, starting basic chemistry [the pH scale and the periodic table] and regularly writing expository essays. they have sat prep courses. they read the new york times. everyone plays a musical instrument. the honor roll is kept front and center. the students are encouraged to discuss and debate. by the time these kids get to eighth grade they dominate the competition. they go on to ivy or other top tier schools. and then they come to hawaii and tell the local mokes what to do.

i attended a public school for intermediate and then was admitted to a private school. what a difference! it was a whole nother culture. both of the private schools have extremely competitive students, frequent recognition of academic achievement, resources and constant pressure to succeed from parents, peers, teachers. everybody in the school was focused on one thing, making a top flight student. public schools simply dont match that level of dedication. instead they yarn about new report cards and 'standards' blah and oh-those-immigrants-depress-our-reading-scores.

bullying in private schools is not as common because students realize that crude methods like these dont garner any attention. the whole culture of the private school focuses on who controls the trophies not the playground. if hawaiis schools adopted the attitude that every school should be modeled on what works [the privates] they would find themselves quite close to the public schools of the northeast.

if necessary yes militarize the schools. at least the students will find a purpose beyond warming a seat.

Stumphurple, you make some sweeping generalizations about the culture of mediocrity in our public schools. If it is as simple as changing the "culture" and adopting an attitude, do you not think it would have been done by now?
I read the links provided by pzarquon (about the school topic) and the discussion therein says it better than I can. I know many of us teachers would agree with you about modeling our schools on what works, but we need the resources, and community and parental support to make it work.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: School Bullying

>>>then dont end your sentences with prepositions<<<
It is behavior up with which I will not put.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: School Bullying

a worthy zinger

Begging to disagree --- I fail to see which sentence ended in a preposition.
Both "lazy way out" and "worth fighting for" are accepted phraseology. What alternatives would you suggest?

As William Safire put it: "If adhering strictly to the rules of grammar makes you sound like a pompous pedant, you are a pompous pedant."