School Bullying

[Peshkwe]

Re: School Bullying

are you asking for a list of hawaii public schools? or do you mean public schools that are actually succeeding? if you mean the second one, two examples offhand are white plains and just about all the schools in madison county, both in new york state. there's also brookline in massachusetts. vermont and connecticut also have great schools. i could get specific names for you if you like.

Specific names of a few of the north eastern schools in which...

".... by fourth grade students are reading shakespeare, working on pre algebra, starting basic chemistry [the pH scale and the periodic table] and regularly writing expository essays.

I would like to ask around a bit from the netzians I know if any are personally familiar with a school you may list. I would need an assortment that fit within your discription though, mainly for a better possible hit on personal experiance.

If you could, list them in order of what you would consider to have the highest standards first.

I may not get any hits *shugs* it's more of a curiosity thing.

[stumphurple]

Re: School Bullying

Specific names of a few of the north eastern schools in which...


Quote:
".... by fourth grade students are reading shakespeare, working on pre algebra, starting basic chemistry [the pH scale and the periodic table] and regularly writing expository essays.


I would like to ask around a bit from the netzians I know if any are personally familiar with a school you may list. I would need an assortment that fit within your discription though, mainly for a better possible hit on personal experiance.

If you could, list them in order of what you would consider to have the highest standards first.

I may not get any hits *shugs* it's more of a curiosity thing.

well i mentioned three in the last post: white plains middle [up to elementary at least] and madison county [specifically im thinking of hamilton elementary, though there are comparable schools in nearby towns] in ny and brookline in mass [william h lincoln elementary, john d runkle, etc.]. also take a look at pine grove in connecticut, with test score averages in the 90s.

for intermediate schools, avon middle in connecticut is excellent; the avg standardized score for math/reading is 96/98 percentile [connecticuts avg statewide, btw, was 77/78; hawaii by comparison has an avg of 17/37--there isnt even a prayer of a comparison]. diamond middle in lexington also a great school [95th percentile is the average for seventh grade language arts; 66 is the state avg] and one of the top schools in the neml, new england mathematics league.

for the test score information, btw, i doublechecked with www.greatschools.net. just find the appropriate state and then input the schools name.

having attended college with many of these kids i know from whence i speak. this should get you started. im sure with a few phone calls i might be able to get more. remember also that these are all public schools, let alone the wealth of great private schools.

[stumphurple]

Re: School Bullying

Begging to disagree --- I fail to see which sentence ended in a preposition.
Both "lazy way out" and "worth fighting for" are accepted phraseology. What alternatives would you suggest?

As William Safire put it: "If adhering strictly to the rules of grammar makes you sound like a pompous pedant, you are a pompous pedant."

sure they are colloquialisms. i was only joshing with you; you are really taking this too seriously. however a preposition typically requires an object to complete the phrase. if you wanted to adhere strictly to the rules of grammar, you could have modified the phrase "lazy way out" to "lazy defense" or "cliched response" or "easy exit" or a number of other alternative phrases, none of which require you to violate the sacrosanct law of the preposition.

in any case, it was a joke.

[stumphurple]

Re: School Bullying

What I said was that encouraging academic excellence will not entirely eliminate bullying.

this is the heart of the issue. im going to start a new thread to discuss what i think are notable failures in hawaiis education system. if you have any further arguments to make, we can direct it there.

perhaps i overstated the case if i implied that this measure would entirely eliminate bullying. in my mind, however, it probably is the best solution. here are some reasons why:

1. if students are focusing on schoolwork, production possibilities tells me there is less idle time for mugging pocket change from their classmates.

2. academic excellence in our society also implies social mobility. many student bullies come from circumstances where they do not feel in control of their own lives. achievement gives them some control.

3. encouraging a culture of academic excellence might also discourage violent behavior. in fact in a juvenile case, school grades may sometimes be used as evidence for the judge to consider whether or not the individual likely committed a crime. many students wont court risky behaviors (like physical violence) simply because it conflicts with other priorities. note that the latest batch of echo boomer overachievers also coincide with falling rates of juvenile delinquincy. now sure correlation doesnt necessarily mean causation but it does lend some credence

4. the whole process of education gives students critical tools that allow them to displace physical dominance with other means of achieving social recognition.

Stumphurple, you make some sweeping generalizations about the culture of mediocrity in our public schools. If it is as simple as changing the "culture" and adopting an attitude, do you not think it would have been done by now?
I read the links provided by pzarquon (about the school topic) and the discussion therein says it better than I can. I know many of us teachers would agree with you about modeling our schools on what works, but we need the resources, and community and parental support to make it work.

i dont think changing the culture is simple at all. it is complex work and in fact you allude to just this process in the end. community and parental support comes when you convince the community and the parents that education is a worthwhile investment. that does involve a change in attitudes and perceptions. sure its hard work, but given that the future of hawaii and hawaiis children is at stake, isnt worth the effort?

furthermore im not sure that it necessarily requires resource investment. of course one teacher [in a severely underfunded inner city school whats more] i recall was particularly resourceful. he began the school year by telling students that he expected every one of them to not only to pass, but to love learning in the process and to excel academically. just that simple statement made a world of difference for the students. it let them know what the primary expectation would be.

those werent magic words of course. a lot of hard work, a lot of blood, sweat and tears followed. on the first day, he asked students for a little information about themselves. and he listened. two of his students could barely speak english. one seemed very bright but bored and stifled. another had lost her older brother in a gangland war. and so forth and so on. at the end of the day, this teacher drew up a list for each student of the strengths he observed and the challenges he anticipated. when possible he asked former teachers about them. he called parents to ask if there was anything he should know that might impact the childs education. each child was an individual to him.

there werent enough math text books to go around in his class, so he used the items in the room and asked students to create problems. together the class would solve them. when it came time for reading, he borrowed some of shakespeares plays for the library ["plays are usually great ways to learn the language," he remarked once, "because they really open the possibility for students to engage with the text."]. he arranged frequent trips to the museum and zoo for their science classes, taking advantage of the fact that they lived in a city. one time it was impossible to get any transportation. so the teacher called the parents and over the course of a month went in groups with the parents and children on weekends. sometimes it was very difficult dealing with those parents. a lot didnt care about education and were suspicious of the school system. many had had bad experiences themselves in school. although i never once heard him lecture a parent, he would calmly and firmly maintain the importance of education. he wasnt condescending at all, listening patiently as parents explained why they didnt care for the school. he arranged meetings with the parents, often at the expense of his own leisure activities so he could meet on their terms.

he wasnt perfect by any means. one time he broke down in the evening, sobbing after a particularly stressful school board meeting. he had fought tooth and nail for the budget but they were slashing it again. the musical instruments he had wanted to order for his students would not be forthcoming. the facilities wouldnt be repaired until spring, meaning it would be a hard winter. his own health benefits were being cut. he was obviously frustrated, though he held that anger and sorrow in front of his family. his family, which also had its own needs. and he took it hard when his students didnt meet his expectations; took it as a personal failure. the job sometimes seemed overwhelming. i asked him what kept him going.

"the kids." he said. "they are future of our country. i love what i do and i know that its important, even if it sometimes doesnt seem that way." throughout he kept that purpose in mind, even as he played second fiddle to mtv or youth gangs or grinding poverty or new projects for the city.

at the beginning of the year he kept a list, front and center, of all the students. each student had a personal goal for each subject they had worked out at the beginning of the year. it had been set by teacher when he first reviewed his students. the list had the names of all the students with seven columns after it for the seven secret goals in each subject. when the student achieved that goal, a star was placed in the column. he worked tirelessly to help them earn those stars. by that time three stars had been earned, most students no longer needed the extrinsic motivation. they had found the joy in learning, because their teachers enthusiasm was so infectious. at the end of the year every student had earned their seven stars.

oddly enough this teacher also never held himself up as a model for anyone. he was admired by the other faculty and even the parents. but the most enduring legacy he had, and perhaps of which he was proudest, was in his students. even in college, where i met a former pupil of his, they still remembered him as a definitive turning point in their education. when i later visited him, i understood why.

this teacher lived for his students. they were his highest passion and his greatest joy. all the resources, parental support, national rankings, and test prepping could not, i think, possibly substitute for the commitment he had to that ideal.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: School Bullying

in any case, it was a joke.

Oh, sorry. I thought jokes involved humor. (And that's my own example of a bad joke.)

FWIW, Stumphurple - I am taking you off my "ignore" list, because I chose to read several of your posts from last evening, and I am impressed! Whether I agree with your points or not, your presentation style has become much less disrespectful (from my perspective) and more amenable to stimulating discussion.

Having said that, I am much more comfortable now in saying "WELCOME to HT," and I hope that my future conversations with you will take a higher tone.

[kaneohegirl]

Re: School Bullying

recently moved from Northern Ca to a suburb of Kansas City Mo I can tell you that much of todays bulling comes out of boredom in the schools. In the CA school we left there was NO accountability for the kids NONE.

The kids ran the classes not the teachers. made teachers wait while the kids decided when to stop talking. all the teachers power have been stripped because of parents making excuses for their childrens behavior and threatening to sue. the kids were not accountable for their own actions and mom or dad bailed them out.

Kids didnt do homework= oh well... no notes sent home stating if such and such isnt made up junior can/will be has the risk of held back because of failure to do work,
talking in class= more time spent trying to reason with the kids, remember the days of the teacher just standing in the classroom and for every second that you made the teacher wait for the class to quiet down was time you spent sitting at the desk after the last bell of the day rang... missed the school bus oh well call mom or dad and take the yelling.

so many kids were pushed thru the system unable to do the work with reading and writing and math because it would damage poor juniors self esteem to repeat a grade.

when we moved here I knew the problems that my son had with reading and spelling. I looked at how the schools were ranked 1-50 How does YOUR state rank?


1. Vermont
2. Connecticut
3. Massachusetts
4. New Jersey
5. Maine
6. Minnesota
7. Virginia
8. Wisconsin
9. Montana
10. New York

11. Pennsylvania
12. Nebraska
13. Kansas
14. Iowa
15. New Hampshire
16. Rhode Island
17. Wyoming
18. South Dakota
19. Maryland
20. North Dakota

21. Missouri
22. North Carolina
23. Colorado
24. Texas
25. Delaware
26. Indiana
27. Michigan
28. Idaho
29. South Carolina
30. Washington

31. Ohio
32. Illinois
33. Utah
34. West Virginia
35. Kentucky
36. Florida
37. Arkansas
38. Oregon
39. Oklahoma
40. Georgia
41. Tennessee
42. Hawaii
43. Alabama
44. Alaska
45. Louisiana
46. California
47. Nevada
48. New Mexico
49. Mississippi
50. Arizona

so I decided to ask where the school thought my son should be placed. it took nearly two weeks for them to get the school records, talk to his old teachers, counselor, as well as principal. have a couple of meetings with me an his dad. I didnt want him to struggle in the 4th grade (which is where he was going to be in CA) if the 4th grade in Missouri was much further advanced. I didnt care about self esteem he would learn to deal and learn consequences of not applying himself in school (something we had to push since his teachers didnt)
now he is repeating 3rd grade again. bulling is not tolerated here. teachers have more power, teachers expect the parents to hold their children accountable for their behavior. its not perfect but when I visit my sons class the room is clean, organized, and kids are polite.

give power back to the teachers! look at many (not all) teens today... rude, obnoxious, and without respect for their elders. I dont want my kids growing up that way.

[craigwatanabe]

Re: School Bullying

This is why we need to decentralize the DOE here in Hawaii. It's focus is squarely on the urban and city schools on Oahu and the larger public schools on the neighbor islands. However there are many Public Charter Schools (PCS) that do better with less funding by the DOE.

What's the difference? Charter schools are allowed to set their own curicullum without much of the political interference from the DOE. Public Charter schools are bonafide Public schools funded by the DOE like regular public schools however they are not mandated to teach a certain way as their DOE classrooms. And the Hawaii Content Performance Standard test that the DOE administers to all public school students (including PCS) prove that charter schools teach academics better than their own DOE schools.

But the crux of school bullying lies not primarily with the schools or it's classroom management, but in the parents themselves.

Students who have parents involved in their schooling as well as volunteering in school activities such as the PTSA, fundraising or other school board functions, typically do better in ANY school. It's the parents responsibility to ensure their kids have a good education. Government only administers education, how it's interpreted by the student is the job of the parent.

Unfortunately sometimes culture doesn't allow a parent to invest in their children's education...because they cannot speak English fluently enough to earn a good paying job they must work two jobs leaving their kids home at night to learn the process by themselves. Not a good thing for the kids and the net result is an unsupervised child who's interests are not in school but more on their friends or TV/video games. When in school their attention isn't on learning, it's about everything else so boredome sets in and then trouble begins.

Parents are vital to keeping their kids focused on education. If it takes learning to be more culturally sensitive to the society they are trying to immerse themselves into then it's their responsibility to do so for the sake of their kids.

Blame the kids for school bullying? Yeah maybe, but really blame the parents too.

[stumphurple]

Re: School Bullying

Oh, sorry. I thought jokes involved humor. (And that's my own example of a bad joke.)

ooooh zing!

FWIW, Stumphurple - I am taking you off my "ignore" list, because I chose to read several of your posts from last evening, and I am impressed! Whether I agree with your points or not, your presentation style has become much less disrespectful (from my perspective) and more amenable to stimulating discussion.

Having said that, I am much more comfortable now in saying "WELCOME to HT," and I hope that my future conversations with you will take a higher tone.

hey guess theres hope for all of us. i get hot under the collar easily and probably posted before i should have earlier on. learned the value of taking five to look over it again. thanks for the welcome.

recently moved from Northern Ca to a suburb of Kansas City Mo I can tell you that much of todays bulling comes out of boredom in the schools. In the CA school we left there was NO accountability for the kids NONE.

The kids ran the classes not the teachers. made teachers wait while the kids decided when to stop talking. all the teachers power have been stripped because of parents making excuses for their childrens behavior and threatening to sue. the kids were not accountable for their own actions and mom or dad bailed them out.

right, thats another reason i think fostering an academic culture can really help. it establishes the teacher as a legitimate authority figure, making it easier for the teacher to lay down the law on other issues [like bullying]. when the kids run the classes on the other hand and put their own agenda ahead of the educational one

another problem [and i will admit, a very difficult one] in the public schools is it is simply too easy for a single student to disrupt the class. when i attended public school, we had one student who threw paper balls at everyone, engaged in minor vandalism, stole things from backpacks, got into arguments, etc. while the teacher was talking. regularly recycled at the principals office to no avail. when i went private, the procedure was very simple. if you went to the principals office more than once [for something other than an award/recommendation], you were on the fast track to expulsion. and at the price of tuition, parents made sure you kept your seat there.

This is why we need to decentralize the DOE here in Hawaii. It's focus is squarely on the urban and city schools on Oahu and the larger public schools on the neighbor islands.

i would agree, except for the enormous income disparity you find in hawaii. under a decentralized system, as i understand it, most of the funding comes from neighborhood property taxes. that means richer neighborhoods will automatically have more resources [which is already the case, but i think it just gets worse under the decentralized model]. in nyc, they are facing this problem; just a few blocks difference can mean either a world class or a severely subpar education for students.

However there are many Public Charter Schools (PCS) that do better with less funding by the DOE. What's the difference? Charter schools are allowed to set their own curicullum without much of the political interference from the DOE. Public Charter schools are bonafide Public schools funded by the DOE like regular public schools however they are not mandated to teach a certain way as their DOE classrooms. And the Hawaii Content Performance Standard test that the DOE administers to all public school students (including PCS) prove that charter schools teach academics better than their own DOE schools.

theres also something to be said for parent choice. charter schools know that if they dont perform, they dont survive. area public schools, on the other hand, continue to draw a student population whether or not they improve. the performance of the charter schools has indeed been impressive and i think its one of the best models to emerge in hawaii public education for quite some time.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: School Bullying

hey guess theres hope for all of us.

Right you are! Hey, look, everyone - the HT peace talks can bring results (and the world sleeps easier, for they know that we will get back on topic.)

[timkona]

Re: School Bullying

I was raised right. My father said "Never hit first, Always hit last". In my family, if you started a fight or lost a fight, you got the same belt whipping from my Dad. He berated one of my Principals one day after I whomped the stuffing out of the class bully with a cast on my arm, after that bully tripped me gettin on the bus. Man, I beat him bloody. And the best part was that the parent pulled that bully from the school. I teach my daughter to fight dirty without remorse. So if your bully-child comes home with a gouged eye, broke teeth, and a groin injury, maybe you should send him to school with some duct tape on his mouth the next day.

[dizzytaylor]

Re: School Bullying

Alohabear,
I understand your concern about the money being spent to address the issue of bullying. However, it has gotten to the point that lawsuits are being filed against staff members because, in the past, they tended to "sweep it under the rug." The victim didn't learn any coping skills/felt defenseless, the bully continued to escalate the degradation, and the "innocent" bystanders did NOTHING.

As the victim of school and workplace bullying, I think it's money well spent. Ask the kids who cower in a teacher's classroom because they're afraid to go out on the playground with the bullies how they feel about the subject. I think you'd find they're praying someone will do something to help them.

[alohabear]

Re: School Bullying

Alohabear,
I understand your concern about the money being spent to address the issue of bullying. However, it has gotten to the point that lawsuits are being filed against staff members because, in the past, they tended to "sweep it under the rug." The victim didn't learn any coping skills/felt defenseless, the bully continued to escalate the degradation, and the "innocent" bystanders did NOTHING.

As the victim of school and workplace bullying, I think it's money well spent. Ask the kids who cower in a teacher's classroom because they're afraid to go out on the playground with the bullies how they feel about the subject. I think you'd find they're praying someone will do something to help them.

If bullying in is so out of hand in the school , security is not doing thier job. Any amount of money won't stop bullying. Maybe the plans made by Dennis Arakaki will help.

What's needed then is a focused effort, from administrators to students in each school, to come up with plans that fit their individual campuses. At the core of any plan must be the acknowledgement of what constitutes bullying behavior, and why such behavior is unacceptable in a school setting.

[street_fighter]

Re: School Bullying

Hi everyone... I am in grade 11 and moving from Ontario Canada to Maui. I'm a white male by the way. I have heard a few bad stories about the locals beating on whites (don't know if its true ^_^), and was wondering how my school was going to be for this sort of thing. I will probably be attending 'HP Baldwin high school' in Wailuku. Is the bullying bad in Hawaii? How should I react? What should I expect? Any advice?

Thanks, (and sorry if I have strayed from the topic >_<).

[Miulang]

Re: School Bullying

Hi everyone... I am in grade 11 and moving from Ontario Canada to Maui. I'm a white male by the way. I have heard a few bad stories about the locals beating on whites (don't know if its true ^_^), and was wondering how my school was going to be for this sort of thing. I will probably be attending 'HP Baldwin high school' in Wailuku. Is the bullying bad in Hawaii? How should I react? What should I expect? Any advice?

Thanks, (and sorry if I have strayed from the topic >_<).

Hey there, Street Fighter. It's true that bullying of newcomers does happen in high schools in Hawai'i. But the same is true for any high school anywhere, I think. Part of the way to stay out of trouble is to make friends with a couple of the local kids as soon as you can. That way, at least you'll have friends who can help you steer clear of problems.

You're Canadian, so that might make it easier for you to assimilate (being a "foreigner" from outside the US). You will most definitely be ethnically outnumbered at BHS (my alma mater as well). It'll be tough for you because you're being uprooted from your friends in Ontario and being in high school is tough anyway, but if you go to school not copping an attitude or having a chip on your shoulder about looking different from everyone else, I think you'll do just fine. Could your parents look into your going to St. Anthony (also in Wailuku) or maybe Seabury Hall? Those are two excellent private schools, and I think you'd feel more comfortable in that environment than in the public high school system, which is pretty rough on newcomers.

Good luck and stay safe.
Miulang

[street_fighter]

Re: School Bullying

Thank you for your reply ^_^. Yes, I have moved before and I know it is difficult... Thanks for the advice, and I agree with you. I have been informed that since I am moving half way through the year, I cannot go to a private school. I have to attend public for at least the next semester, and then see if I can even get into the private (my grades are not the greatest, and my parents aren't made of money ^_^).

I think I will start another thread (in the appropriate section ^_^), because I have more questions, and do not want to hijack this thread. Thank you again.