Iraq War Called Illegal by Lt. Watada - Chapter 2

[GeckoGeek]

Re: Iraq War Called Illegal by Lt. Watada - Chapter 2

if, in hindsight, we Americans acknowledge/agree/decide (by our courts, by overwhelming public opinion, or by some combination of those and a number of other factors) that the military action in Iraq is in fact illegal then Watada's stands a good chance of not being tried because it would be his (and all other military personnels') duty not to obey unlawful orders.

Public opinion doesn't count for diddly-squat in defining if something is illegal or not. So far the only court case I know of that could define the war illegal is his. It doesn't matter if we pull out or not. As long as the courts have not judged the war as illegal, his trial will go on. (Somehow I don't see current or future Congress or President declaring it illegal, so it will have to be the courts.)

[Adri]

Re: Iraq War Called Illegal by Lt. Watada - Chapter 2

Public opinion doesn't count for diddly-squat in defining if something is illegal or not. So far the only court case I know of that could define the war illegal is his. It doesn't matter if we pull out or not. As long as the courts have not judged the war as illegal, his trial will go on. (Somehow I don't see current or future Congress or President declaring it illegal, so it will have to be the courts.)

The public has a lot to do with whether something is considered illegal. Not right away, not on its face, but it does have influence. I believe that once public opinion reaches a critical mass, the pressure makes changes. Politicians can be impeached. The public elects our politicians, law makers, investigators (as in Congress' power to investigate). Politicians always consider public opinion in decision making. Not that public opinion is always the deciding factor for politicians, but it is an influence. Not that public opinion is the immediate and absolute deciding factor for the courts but the courts always consider public opinion and the public is always a measure in deciding what is acceptable, what is not acceptable, and how bad is the violation if there is a violation? It's why we repealed the attempted ban on alcohol consumption. It's why having a child bride used to be acceptable and now we have age-of-consent and statutory rape laws. It's why the U.S. apologized for interning Japanese U.S. citizens and made reparations. I don't think the war in Iraq will be declared (by any means) illegal in the U.S. (since there are some places that already consider it illegal) any time soon, and probably not in time to "save" Watada from being tried and probably serving some time. But I do think that in a few decades, it's a possibility.

eta: I want to be clear, though, that I do not mean this to be a criticism in any way of our military who have served honorably in Iraq.

[StephS]

Re: Iraq War Called Illegal by Lt. Watada - Chapter 2

I have a co-worker who was in the Army, and from what she's told me a person can still be called up for duty even after the contract runs out, and they are obligated to serve. That's what happened to her; she got out after doing a 3-year tour of duty, and she got called back after a few months because they needed her again.

[Adri]

Re: Iraq War Called Illegal by Lt. Watada - Chapter 2

I have a co-worker who was in the Army, and from what she's told me a person can still be called up for duty even after the contract runs out, and they are obligated to serve. That's what happened to her; she got out after doing a 3-year tour of duty, and she got called back after a few months because they needed her again.

I think you're probably referring to the Individual Ready Reserve (or something like that). It's my understanding that it's a standard part of their contract that they can be recalled up to 5 years after serving their term.

[Miulang]

Re: Iraq War Called Illegal by Lt. Watada - Chapter 2

I think you're probably referring to the Individual Ready Reserve (or something like that). It's my understanding that it's a standard part of their contract that they can be recalled up to 5 years after serving their term.

What's really unfortunate for these folks, as with the National Guard people, is they have lives away from the military, which they must put on hold for a deployment (or two, or three or four...). Like that guy who has to sue the DoD to try to keep from getting deployed for the 5th time so that he can get his college degree so he can go work for a military contractor after he graduates, these patriots don't have any guarantees that they will have jobs when they return (although by law they are supposed to be protected), they lose their company healthcare, they get torn from their kids, they generally earn less money while being deployed (and therefore could lose their homes) and then they also take the biggest risk of all...not coming home alive at all or coming home with appendages missing and a healthcare system that turns its back on them once they are stable enough to be discharged from the hospital.

Miulang

[StephS]

Re: Iraq War Called Illegal by Lt. Watada - Chapter 2

What's really unfortunate for these folks, as with the National Guard people, is they have lives away from the military, which they must put on hold for a deployment (or two, or three or four...). Like that guy who has to sue the DoD to try to keep from getting deployed for the 5th time so that he can get his college degree so he can go work for a military contractor after he graduates, these patriots don't have any guarantees that they will have jobs when they return (although by law they are supposed to be protected), they lose their company healthcare, they get torn from their kids, they generally earn less money while being deployed (and therefore could lose their homes) and then they also take the biggest risk of all...not coming home alive at all or coming home with appendages missing and a healthcare system that turns its back on them once they are stable enough to be discharged from the hospital.

Miulang

You want to hear some real nuttiness? My husband did a 4-year tour of duty in the Air Force, but somehow, they neglected to inform him about his bennies when he was discharged. He didn't find out until he nearly died when his appendix went kablooey during a late shift at Conoco one night. His dad carted him off to the VA Hospital here in Denver, and that's where he was finally informed that yes, he has bennies.

[GeckoGeek]

Re: Iraq War Called Illegal by Lt. Watada - Chapter 2

I don't think the war in Iraq will be declared (by any means) illegal in the U.S. (since there are some places that already consider it illegal) any time soon, and probably not in time to "save" Watada from being tried and probably serving some time. But I do think that in a few decades, it's a possibility.

Oh, maybe when the current politicians (including congress) are out of office it might happen. But we're in agreement it's not going to come soon enough for Watada.

[1stwahine]

Re: Iraq War Called Illegal by Lt. Watada - Chapter 2

Oh, maybe when the current politicians (including congress) are out of office it might happen. But we're in agreement it's not going to come soon enough for Watada.

heheheh...

Totally!!! In AGREEMENT!!!

He going JAIL! Taking time...but he going.

Auntie Lynn

[TuNnL]

Re: Iraq War Called Illegal by Lt. Watada - Chapter 2

It appears that Ehren’s father Bob Watada intends to continue making the rounds on the speaking circuit in the months leading up to the new trial. I wonder if the government is hoping the media and the peace movement will eventually forget about Lt. Watada, and his dad is taking preventative measures.

[GeckoGeek]

Re: Iraq War Called Illegal by Lt. Watada - Chapter 2

I wonder if the government is hoping the media and the peace movement will eventually forget about Lt. Watada, and his dad is taking preventative measures.

Unless I'm very mistaken, public opinion doesn't (or at least shouldn't) play a part in the court case. As such, any the peace movement is just creating hassles. So, I'm sure some people in the government would be quite happy if he was forgotten about.

As for Mr. Watada, their only hope is all the public scrutiny will aid their cause. Be it legal help, financial, help or just oversight to make sure the court doesn't go too far.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Iraq War Called Illegal by Lt. Watada - Chapter 2

Latest legal maneuvering.

To simplify (which is getting tougher to do with each step) -

The Army has announced a start date of Tuesday, October 9, for the Lieutenant's second court-martial. His attorneys are asking that the federal courts put a hold on that process, arguing that it should wait until the U.S. Circuit Court for the Armed Forces decides on his appeal of the Army Court of Criminal Appeals ruling that the second court-martial is not "double jeopardy."

Watada's attorneys also asked that he be allowed to leave the Army. His term of service ended in December, but the pending legal proceedings have prevented his discharge.


Let the debate resume...

[salmoned]

Re: Iraq War Called Illegal by Lt. Watada - Chapter 2

Well, an officer doesn't really have a firm 'term of service', unlike enlisted personnel. They serve at the pleasure of the President. My '4 year' service commitment was extended to 5 without any paperwork or notification - resignation of my commission was not 'accepted' at the end of my minimum service obligation.

[TuNnL]

Re: Iraq War Called Illegal by Lt. Watada - Chapter 2

Hmmmm.... the Star-Bulletin is reporting that there is a welcoming ceremony for Lt. Watada’s unit (which has returned from Iraq) today. I wonder if Ehren is attending the festivities?

[Miulang]

Re: Iraq War Called Illegal by Lt. Watada - Chapter 2

The judge hearing Lt. Watada's appeal announced late today that his court martial, which was scheduled to begin next Tues., is on hold again.

The Tuesday court-martial of 1st Lt. Ehren Watada at Fort Lewis has been put on hold by a U.S. District Court judge, who issued his ruling late today.

This would have been the second trial for Watada, who faces up to six years in military prison for his refusal to deploy to Iraq, and separate charges of conduct unbecoming an officer.

Watada's first court-martial, which gained international attention, ended in a mistrial earlier this year. U.S. District Court Judge Benjamin Settle wants time to consider whether a second trial would violate Watada's constitutional rights that protect him from "double jeopardy" that is a guarantee against being twice put to trial for the same offense.

"This Court has not been presented any evidence showing that Petitioner's double jeopardy claim lacks merit," Settle wrote. "On the contrary, the record indicates that Petitioner's double jeopardy claim is meritous."

Miulang

[woodman]

Re: Iraq War Called Illegal by Lt. Watada - Chapter 2

I was all for going after terrorists after 9/11, but that was 6 years ago.

Our government STILL wants to listen in on our phone conversations and track our internet activity claiming that it is necessary for national security.

In six more years, if they don't get what they want, they are still going to want to push this, and if they actually make progress in this direction they are just going to more.

The longer this war drags on, the more justified Watada begins to appear. And the more our president "mis-stumbles" his speech in public address and undermines US industry (seling us out to foreign interests), the more HE begins to look more like a criminal.

Contrary to what you may have been taught in school, America is NOT the "land of the free".

My advice, kiss this country goodbye and learn to speak spanish.

Viva El Mexico!

Viva El Jorge BOooosh!