How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

[matapule]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

No one who has been executed for murder has ever committed the act of murder again,

And no one with a life sentence without the possibility of parole has ever committed murder again.

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

And no one with a life sentence without the possibility of parole has ever committed murder again.

Hi Matapule,
We cannot prove your statement either way. However, you have this belief that people who are sentenced to Life Without the possibility of parole are never released. Here in Hawaii, the penal code states that Life Without Parole, (LWOP) a person sentenced to LWOP will spend the rest of his life in prison without the possibility of parole... HOWEVER, after serving twenty years, he case is to be reviewed by the "paroling authority" for possible commuting of the sentence. In other words, "Life, Without the possibility of parole" in Hawaii, actually means 20 years without the possibility of parole.

People sentenced to LWOP have been released without their conviction being overturned. No one who has been sentenced to death has ever been released without either having his sentence commuted or without his conviction being overturned.

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

And an innocent man can't live his life once killed.

True. And we have thousands of innocent people murdered by crime in this country every year.

In the past 100 years, there is not one proven case, where a person executed by any state in this country, who has been posthumously proven innocent.

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Very funny, first you pretend to argue for a legal change to uphold 'human rights', then with your next breath, you want to argue for a legal change taking away 'human rights'. Typical. I guess you're not happy with the way things are, yet have no reasonable idea how to improve the situation. Try tink, brah.

Hi Ed,
I don't claim to be a conservative or a liberal. Or a Democrat, or a Republican. I just calls it as I sees it. My opinions may differ with liberals at times, and conservatives at times. I vote for whom I feel is the best candidate regardless of his/her political party.
Nobu

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

This could just be a stupid question but if one is convicted and given the death penalty why is there a "death row"? Why isn't the person convicted and sentenced not just put to death?
This is not to say I am for or against the death penalty I'm just asking.

Hi D'A,
The reason for the delay is the convicted rights to appeal. It is a fail safe to ensure that we do not execute an innocent. This does NOT mean that no innocent has ever been executed, but no one in the past 100 years has been executed by any state in this country and posthumously proven innocent.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

...but no one in the past 100 years has been executed by any state in this country and posthumously proven innocent.

This statement cannot be proven. There is no way to tell how many of the over 1,000 people executed since 1976 may also have been innocent. Courts do not generally entertain claims of innocence when the defendant is dead. Defense attorneys move on to other cases where clients' lives can still be saved. Some cases with strong evidence of innocence include:

Carlos DeLuna, Texas - Convicted: 1983, Executed: 1989
Ruben Cantu, Texas - Convicted: 1985, Executed: 1993
Larry Griffin, Missouri - Convicted: 1981, Executed: 1995
Joseph O'Dell, Virginia - Convicted: 1986, Executed: 1997
David Spence, Texas - Convicted: 1984, Executed: 1997
Leo Jones, Florida - Convicted: 1981, Executed: 1998
Gary Graham, Texas - Convicted: 1981, Executed: 2000
Cameron Willingham, Texas - Convicted: 1992, Executed: 2004

[TuNnL]

Re: Death penalty cheap?

Actually, you are wrong. It doesn't cost us any more or less to incarcerate a prisoner in a maximum security prison whether he is on death row or not.

I really want to believe you, but as stated earlier, cynsaligia had documented statistics to back her up, while you, on the other hand, are make an unsupported statement. What is the source of your claim?

What DOES cost more, is a capital trial where a death sentenced is sought. HOWEVER, because of plea bargain, it is actually cheaper to have capital punishment as an exerciseable bargaining tool. Since a plea bargain in order to live is likely to be accepted, a costly trial IF capital punishment was not available, the plea bargainer has nothing to lose by going through a costly trial.

What they have to lose is the money their relatives and friends (in many cases) are paying their attorney to defend them. Not to mention, their face will be plastered all over the t.v. news in a negative light, regardless of the trial’s outcome. However, I do agree that capital punishment would be an effective bargaining tool. A defendant might think twice about going to trial, if they knew death was a possible outcome.

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

This statement cannot be proven. There is no way to tell how many of the over 1,000 people executed since 1976 may also have been innocent. Courts do not generally entertain claims of innocence when the defendant is dead. Defense attorneys move on to other cases where clients' lives can still be saved. Some cases with strong evidence of innocence include:

Carlos DeLuna, Texas - Convicted: 1983, Executed: 1989
Ruben Cantu, Texas - Convicted: 1985, Executed: 1993
Larry Griffin, Missouri - Convicted: 1981, Executed: 1995
Joseph O'Dell, Virginia - Convicted: 1986, Executed: 1997
David Spence, Texas - Convicted: 1984, Executed: 1997
Leo Jones, Florida - Convicted: 1981, Executed: 1998
Gary Graham, Texas - Convicted: 1981, Executed: 2000
Cameron Willingham, Texas - Convicted: 1992, Executed: 2004

You are buying into the anti DP factions bogus claims. NONE of the above have been proven wrongful executions. Of the list you posted, I researched Joseph O'Dell, and Gary Graham. They were definitely guilty. It is a wonder you didn't post Odell Barnes, and of course Roger Keith Coleman. Coleman was confirmed guilty by DNA tests. Also, one to look into would be Caryl Chessman.

My statement stands. In the past 100 years, not one execution has been posthumously proven wrongful.

On the other cases, I will gladly look into them if you can provide the trial information. You must remember, they were all proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. What would be fair since this is after the fact, is to prove them innocent beyond a reasonable doubt... So far, in the past 100 years, none... Absolutely none....

[1stwahine]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Shhhhhhhhhhhhh.

[Nobunaga]

Re: Death penalty cheap?

I really want to believe you, but as stated earlier, cynsaligia had documented statistics to back her up, while you, on the other hand, are make an unsupported statement. What is the source of your claim?

What they have to lose is the money their relatives and friends (in many cases) are paying their attorney to defend them. Not to mention, their face will be plastered all over the t.v. news in a negative light, regardless of the trial’s outcome. However, I do agree that capital punishment would be an effective bargaining tool. A defendant might think twice about going to trial, if they knew death was a possible outcome.

What cynsaligia probably posted, was the research done by The University of North Carolina. Again, by joshing around figures, they managed to make it appear that capital punishment costs more. What they compared, is the trial costs of a capital punishment case, compared with incarceration, which is not really a fair comparison. If you can bring up the "source" of cynsaligia's figures, I will show you where they "juiced" it.

For instance, Gerald Kogan, a retired Chief Justice (anti Death Penalty) made the claim that Florida pays $3.2 MILLION to execute someone, while LWOP costs just $600,000.
Source: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/spee...e-gerald-kogan

Now, let me explain how he got the figures. What he did, was compare 40 years of incarceration at $15,000 per year, with the trial costs of ALL of the death penalty cases in the state, divided by the 12 executions they had from 1976 to 1999, when the speech was made. Of course, the apples v oranges comparison gives you a very large discrepancy. When Kogan was asked about his figures, he said he got it from the "newspapers". Of course, he didn't do any research on how the figures were attained.

A fair comparison, would be an apples with apples comparison. A DP trial v. a non DP trial for similar crimes, OR, 40 years of incarceration in a maximum security prison compared to approximately 10 years in a maximum security prison plus an execution. What you should also remember, is when a person is held in prison for the rest of his life, the state must pay for his medical bills when his health starts to fail with age.

[Nobunaga]

On costs of capital punishment.

Aloha,
Of course, there are a lot of arguments on the actual costs of capital punishment, with most of the literature claiming that capital punishment costs more than life in prison without the possibility of parole (LWOP).

Here are some things to consider.
1. The possible plea bargain to avoid a death sentence. With the presence of capital punishment, a plea bargain to avoid a death sentence avoids the expensive trial, and saves money.
2. The fact that without capital punishment as an option, the accused has nothing to lose by going through the entire limit of the trial and all of the appeals. Even giving the plea bargain out say for a "life sentence" over a LWOP sentence, the amount of time he must serve would be considered irrelevant.
3. The increasing medical costs of the person serving a LWOP sentence when he ages and his health begins to fail.
4. The fact that if capital punishment is abolished, as it is now in Hawaii, those who earn their livings during the "more expensive" capital trials will not take a pay cut. They will just increase their fees to prosecute or defend the non-capital punishment trials.

A good example would be the Xerox massacre in Honolulu, year 1999. There is no doubt that Byran Uyesugi murdered his seven victims. Does anyone know how much his trial cost???? If we had capital punishment, and Uyesugi wanted to live, he would have plea bargained out, gotten the same sentences of seven consecutive LWOP sentences, and the cost of almost ZERO dollars.

Again, I challenge anyone here, to produce any evidence that capital punishment costs more than LWOP. My bet is I will be able to find the discrepancy in the figures.

Thank you all, for the friendly debates here.
Aloha.
Nobu

[GregLee]

Re: On costs of capital punishment.

2. The fact that without capital punishment as an option, the accused has nothing to lose by going through the entire limit of the trial and all of the appeals.

Why should the accused have anything to lose? It seems that you're trying to slip in the assumption that he is actually guilty.

[Nobunaga]

Re: On costs of capital punishment.

Why should the accused have anything to lose? It seems that you're trying to slip in the assumption that he is actually guilty.

Hi Greg,
When you are indicted, the prosecution has only one chance to convict you because of our double jeopardy laws. So, when indicted, the prosecution must have a very good winnable case against you. When going to trial for a felony, you are apt to lose. MOST felony cases that go up to trial will end up with a conviction.

90% of all convictions are attained through plea bargain. What happens here, is the accused knows he will be convicted, and agrees with his defense counsel to bargain for the best deal that can be negotiated.

Upon a plea bargain, of course, there is an assumption of guilt. If innocent, then you should go to trial. The prosecution should be at a disadvantage because they must prove you guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
Nobu

[Ron Whitfield]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

True. And we have thousands of innocent people murdered by crime in this country every year.
In the past 100 years, there is not one proven case, where a person executed by any state in this country, who has been posthumously proven innocent.

I'd bet we've executed a few innocents. How many would be too many for you?

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

I'd bet we've executed a few innocents. How many would be too many for you?

It is possible that we have executed a few innocents, but so far, in the past 100 years, NONE of the executed has been posthumously proven to be innocent. Should we find ONE, it would be a very powerful argument for the anti-capital punishment faction, so ONE would be too many.

I too would bet that a state in this country exected an innocent, but I would not bet that even a single one has been, or will be posthumously proven.

IF any will ever be provem, it would have to be during the years of high racial discrimination and it would have to be in a southern state.