How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

[Ron Whitfield]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

It is possible that we have executed a few innocents, but so far, in the past 100 years, NONE of the executed has been posthumously proven to be innocent. Should we find ONE, it would be a very powerful argument for the anti-capital punishment faction, so ONE would be too many.
I too would bet that a state in this country exected an innocent, but I would not bet that even a single one has been, or will be posthumously proven.
IF any will ever be provem, it would have to be during the years of high racial discrimination and it would have to be in a southern state.

We've probably done it within 10 years and I doubt any wrongly executed will feel better postumously.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

(1) You are buying into the anti DP factions bogus claims. (2) NONE of the above have been proven wrongful executions.

Addressing these two sentences in reverse order...

(2) As I said before, "Courts do not generally entertain claims of innocence when the defendant is dead." So no, no one is able to PROVE wrongful executions in court, because the courts won't address them. But it doesn't guarantee it hasn't happened.

(1) I am part of the "anti DP factions," have been my whole life, and am not ashamed to admit that I value a human being's life over tax monies. To suggest that I am "buying into" something that you simply happen to disagree with insults my intelligence. If that is your debating style, I have no interest - keep it with Fox News, Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and that disrespectful lot.

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Addressing these two sentences in reverse order...

(2) As I said before, "Courts do not generally entertain claims of innocence when the defendant is dead." So no, no one is able to PROVE wrongful executions in court, because the courts won't address them. But it doesn't guarantee it hasn't happened.

(1) I am part of the "anti DP factions," have been my whole life, and am not ashamed to admit that I value a human being's life over tax monies. To suggest that I am "buying into" something that you simply happen to disagree with insults my intelligence. If that is your debating style, I have no interest - keep it with Fox News, Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and that disrespectful lot.

Hi Leo,
You are incorrect as far as your statement that no one is able to prove a wrongful execution. In the Roger Keith Coleman case, while the DNA tests confirms his guilty, it was performed to prove one way or another, his guilt posthumously.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Keith_Coleman

As far as "insulting" your intelligence, I am merely pointing out the FACTS on the subject. You were obviously mis-informed at least on that particular claim about posthumous research on wrongful executions, and now you have been corrected. IF you can find any of my posts on this subject anything but factual, I will gladly apologize and stand corrected. (I do not apologize for any misspellings, and typos because I can be lousy at typing and spelling at times.)

As I posted earlier to Salmoned on this very thread, I do not claim to be a conservative or a liberal, or a Republican or a Democrat. I simply call it as I see it, and on capital punishment, I was once opposed to it at one time also, so I do know the arguments on both sides very well.

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

We've probably done it within 10 years and I doubt any wrongly executed will feel better postumously.

I really don't think you will come even close to finding a wrongful execution within the last 10 years, because of the modern equipment we have to solve crimes. But if you find any execution that is questionable, bring out the case, and the evidence, and let's discuss it.

As far as your doubt that any wrongly executed feeling any better posthumously, I also doubt that the more than ten thousand annual murder victims feel any better about being unwilling victims either. An executed murderer is a victim of his own actions, while a murder victim is not.

[bjd392]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

And no one with a life sentence without the possibility of parole has ever committed murder again.

The families of slain prison guards who were shanked by these people would beg to differ.

[GregLee]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Hi Leo,
You are incorrect as far as your statement that no one is able to prove a wrongful execution. In the Roger Keith Coleman case, while the DNA tests confirms his guilty, it was performed to prove one way or another, his guilt posthumously.

So you claim to have shown that it is possible to prove a wrongful execution by citing a case in which an execution was shown not to be wrongful? Does that make any sense at all?

[scrivener]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Deleted, even though I did count to twenty before submitting. I just wasn't adding anything, so I withdraw my contribution.

[Ron Whitfield]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

An executed murderer is a victim of his own actions, while a murder victim is not.

And the executed innocent is...? Of course, screwed.

The possibility of mistake justifies ignoring capital punishment as a legitimate recourse for a civilized people.

We've freed over 100 from death row based on DNA evidence they weren't culpable, and there are recent cases suspected of having been examples of errant guilt resulting in execution.

We are only as good as how we treat that in our care.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Deleted, even though I did count to twenty before submitting. I just wasn't adding anything, so I withdraw my contribution.

Phooey. Another of life's missed opportunities.

[scrivener]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

You know what? You're right. If I was going to waste that space, I might as well have put my mind to it and found SOMEthing to add. Since I don't think I have anything to add to this overly argued (and seldom effective in changing minds) issue that is one I've taken seriously since I was in the fifth grade, I will contribute the words of Sister Helen Prejean, the woman whose books inspired Dead Man Walking (the film).

I think that was a great film, partly because it seemed to reinforce the positions of any viewer, whether pro- or anti-death-penalty. Sister Helen herself is against the death penalty, and I was lucky enough to have had the opportunity to hear her speak at Chaminade a few years ago. She opened with, "We do not judge others based on what they have done. We judge them based on who we are."

These words brought tears to my eyes that afternoon and many times afterward. Looking at my own models of peace, love, and compassion (three virtues I will always aspire to), I am sure she is right. When I look at the way I've judged others in my life, I know those judgments do not speak well of who I am. But it doesn't mean I can't try to change either the "who I am" part of that or the judgments themselves.

Are we a vindictive state? Or are we something else? I think we're something else, or at the very least we strive to be something else. Others clearly disagree, and that's probably why we'll never really settle this, and that's probably why we'll never change anyone's mind no matter how many times we argue about the issue.

[TuNnL]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

...I will contribute the words of Sister Helen Prejean, the woman whose books inspired Dead Man Walking (the film)...

Whoah, Scriv! Spoiler alert? Please consider those of us who haven’t seen the film or read the book yet.

[scrivener]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

You should really see it; it's a great film, and it's Sean Penn at his best. But I haven't spoiled anything. I didn't say anything about the movie!

[bjd392]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Since I don't think I have anything to add to this overly argued (and seldom effective in changing minds) issue... etc.

The minds of many do change when the circumstance doesn't happen to someone else.

One can argue against the death penalty all they want. But when vicious serial killer X decides to take out one family member or friend at a time, how far and how many will one allow before he wishes that serial killer X is killed? Yes, even in movies, we're more excited when the bad guy dies than we are when he gets locked up 'forever.'

Death is the only thing that shows no prejudice. I personally wish criminals would die faster so that the rest of us could pursue our happy, joyous, and often ignorant lives.

[matapule]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

One can argue against the death penalty all they want. But when vicious serial killer X decides to take out one family member or friend at a time, how far and how many will one allow before he wishes that serial killer X is killed?.

You are correct! If it were too happen to me, I would want blood, death and vengance. That is a very human emotional response and the correct feeling. I remember the Presidential debates a few years back when Michael Dukakis was asked about the parole of convicted rapist and murderer Willie Horton. Willie Horton was released and went out and committed armed robbery and rape again. Dukakis was asked to justify the release and how he would feel if his wife had been raped and murdered. He gave a very wishy- washy answer about everyone should be given the chance for rehabilitation. Dukakis was rightly vilifed for that answer. He should have said, the release was wrong, it was very wrong. If it had been my wife who was violated, I would want to get a gun and kill the bastard. That woulld be the expected human response of a victim.

But read Scrivener's powerful words above. We, as human beings, strive to be something more than emotional, vindictive animals. If we can judge from an emotional distance, we can elevate ourselves to higher plane. If we are not the ones who have been victimized, we should be able to judge rationally to define ourselves as a society. That is why, in our legal system, victims and their families are not allowed to be judge or jury or executioner.

I do not expect to change any minds here. Like Scrivener, I don't have anything to add that would be a compelling argument one way or the other. Each one of us must reach our own enlightenment. But I feel compelled to join in the discussion because it defines who I am as an individual.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Man, if I could only be so eloquent when I have nothing to add... [/jealousy]