How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

[GregLee]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

But when vicious serial killer X decides to take out one family member or friend at a time, how far and how many will one allow before he wishes that serial killer X is killed? Yes, even in movies, we're more excited when the bad guy dies than we are when he gets locked up 'forever.'

I'm just trying to decide how to best characterize this argument. You want to decide a matter of public policy according to what most excites us in movies. I think the best term would be "argument from stupidity".

[bjd392]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

I'm just trying to decide how to best characterize this argument. You want to decide a matter of public policy according to what most excites us in movies. I think the best term would be "argument from stupidity".

The quoted portion is not my argument; it is a statement decribing a person's emotion when shown a circumstance that hopefully they will NEVER have to experience in real life. Movies (for the most part) are fiction, and some people feel the poetic justice displayed in them is far more satisfying than the restrictions that certain laws show.

The argument is either for or against the death penalty. It is clear that people have their opinions to it. The supreme court has decided that it does not violate 8th Amendment rights and therefore it is legal. Public policy has abolished it at one time, and RE-INSTATED it later down the road. Do people have to like it? No. On the other side of the spectrum, there are those who believe that convicted-beyond-reasonable-doubt felons sentenced to die spend way too much time waiting for it.

But no one's going to stop someone from taking someone else's post out of context because that's what they want to hear. But just because a handful of posters here disagree with what appears to be a majority clique on the boards doesn't mean comments are stupid. I applaud matapule's response because at least it has logical thought and debate to it, even though on other topics we sometimes don't agree.

[Kalalau]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

There are statistics showing that areas with the death penalty have higher violent crime rates than those without. I think its because the death penalty sends a mixed message to people. Obviously on one level it communicates that a capital offense is prohibited with the harshest, ultimate penalty. But on another level when the state kills people it is saying that killing people is OK. After all, if I am killing people, its something I believe in, because if I didn't believe in it, I wouldn't be doing it. We have a thin veneer of civilization and mercy over millions of years of brutal animal aggression, the fact that people "like" the death penalty is reason enough to not use it, it stirs up those violent passions that lie just below the surface of our modern civilized minds. Not for everybody, of course, but for enough to be a problem.

I think there should be research into drugs that could control violent behavior. If a person establishes a pattern of violence, say one or two convictions for a violent crime, they have a choice of taking drugs that would eliminate the ability to form violent thoughts or carry out violent acts, or of going to prison.

A friend was a lawyer. He told me about a case of a Black man who did something like 20 years hard prison time for a crime he did not commit. He had alibi witnesses at trial, all Black, all friends and family, and the white jury chose not to believe any of them. Eventually DNA evidence exonerated him. To take a chance on killing an innocent person is just too heavy a chance. It is the equivalent of participating in murder, I do not want to be involved in murder, I don't think anybody on this board does, and the only way to make sure you aren't is to not have the state kill people in your name. You might actually have to answer for innocent blood on your hands some day if religion is correct.

[Ron Whitfield]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

A friend was a lawyer. He told me about a case of a Black man who did something like 20 years hard prison time for a crime he did not commit. He had alibi witnesses at trial, all Black, all friends and family, and the white jury chose not to believe any of them. Eventually DNA evidence exonerated him.

Too bad that's not a unique story. In fact it's quite common, just from the numbers that are known.

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

So you claim to have shown that it is possible to prove a wrongful execution by citing a case in which an execution was shown not to be wrongful? Does that make any sense at all?

Of course it does. The tests were made not to confirm Coleman't guilt, but because there was doubt about his guilt. The doubt was created by the anti DP faction, and the DNA tests were requested by that faction through the courts. Had the DNA tests prove negative, it would have been solid proof that the State of VA executed an innocent. Just as the DNA test proved the case not to be wrongful, it could have also proven it to be wrongful.

Another case where it was attempted to prove posthumously, innocence, was that of Bruno Hauptman.

To say that it isn't possible to prove a posthumous execution to be wrongful because of innocence is simply untrue. It is possible, but none have been proven in the past 100 years yet. Again, this does not mean there are none, it only means that there are none proven. The Coleman case proves that an execution can be proven wrongful, although the DNA tests on that particular case proved otherwise.

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Kalalau> There are statistics showing that areas with the death penalty have higher violent crime rates than those without.

Nobu> That is true. However, do you actually believe that in the states where the DP is abolished, if it was reinstated, that the violent crime rate would rise? The DP states do have higher homicide rates, but abolishing the DP in those states will not decrease the amount of homicides. Hawaii abolished capital punishment in the 1950's, and has had a steady increase in homicides since, with the homicide rates never falling below what it was of 1955 from 1965 on.

Kalalau> I think its because the death penalty sends a mixed message to people.

Nobu> I really don't think so. Capital punishment is present in states with higher homicide rates because of their homicide rates rather than the homicide rates being high because of capital punishment. Do you actually believe, that if we reinstated capital punishment here in Hawaii, that our homicide rates would increase? I think it would remain the same at the very worst.

Kalalau> Obviously on one level it communicates that a capital offense is prohibited with the harshest, ultimate penalty. But on another level when the state kills people it is saying that killing people is OK.

Nobu> I don't think there is anyone here, with a non-criminal mind, who would think it is OK to kill innocent people because we kill murderers.

Kalalau> A friend was a lawyer. He told me about a case of a Black man who did something like 20 years hard prison time for a crime he did not commit.

Nobu> This happens often. However, do you actually believe that we should not punish people who commit crimes? Do you actually believe that if we reinstated capital punishment that the wrongful convictions would increase? When someone is wrongfully convicted, it is a travesty. However, it has happened more often in non-capital punishment cases than capital punishment cases. While there are people who are exonerated from Death Row, there are far more of those very people who would not have been exonerated if sentenced to life instead.

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

The minds of many do change when the circumstance doesn't happen to someone else.

One can argue against the death penalty all they want. But when vicious serial killer X decides to take out one family member or friend at a time, how far and how many will one allow before he wishes that serial killer X is killed? Yes, even in movies, we're more excited when the bad guy dies than we are when he gets locked up 'forever.'

Death is the only thing that shows no prejudice. I personally wish criminals would die faster so that the rest of us could pursue our happy, joyous, and often ignorant lives.

I completely agree with you.

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

The families of slain prison guards who were shanked by these people would beg to differ.

Correct. Or fellow inmates, or othe rprison workers are murdered within the prisons by people serving time or while on death row. Also, from the Texas Seven, a few of that seven were sentenced to LWOP.

Murders in prison happen at a rate that is similar to the murders outside of the prisons. (About 8 per 100,000.)

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

And the executed innocent is...? Of course, screwed.

The possibility of mistake justifies ignoring capital punishment as a legitimate recourse for a civilized people.

We've freed over 100 from death row based on DNA evidence they weren't culpable, and there are recent cases suspected of having been examples of errant guilt resulting in execution.

We are only as good as how we treat that in our care.

Hi Ron,
ANY person who is innocent, but convicted and punished is of course, screwed. Just as you cannot give an executed person his life back, you cannot give a person who wrongfully serves a day, week, month, years, or many years that time back either.

As someone else posted, a man wrongfully served 20 years in prison, and was found innocent, and released. Of course, you cannot give that man 20 years of his life that we took away back.
Nobu
Nobu

[GregLee]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

To say that it isn't possible to prove a posthumous execution to be wrongful because of innocence is simply untrue.

Is this relevant to the discussion? Did anyone say it wasn't possible? Not I. You're the one claiming to have shown it is possible. But by citing a case in which execution was shown not to be wrongful, it should be obvious to you that you have not shown that execution can be shown to be wrongful. You're just getting confused.

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Is this relevant to the discussion? Did anyone say it wasn't possible? Not I. You're the one claiming to have shown it is possible. But by citing a case in which execution was shown not to be wrongful, it should be obvious to you that you have not shown that execution can be shown to be wrongful. You're just getting confused.

Yes. Leo Lakio on the previous page, sixth posts down, basically said it was impossible. So, I have shown this board the avenue where it is possible to be proven one way or another.

By showing you a case that failed to prove a wrongful execution, I have shown this thread that it is possible to prove a wrongful execution. Unless, of course, there is not wrongful execution, or a wrongful execution is not looked at for the possibility.

You posted the question on a previous post: "So you claim to have shown that it is possible to prove a wrongful execution by citing a case in which an execution was shown not to be wrongful? Does that make any sense at all? "

Your question has been answered properly. The post is very relevant to the discussion here.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Yes. Leo Lakio on the previous page, sixth posts down, basically said it was impossible.

No. I said:

As I said before, "Courts do not generally entertain claims of innocence when the defendant is dead." So no, no one is able to PROVE wrongful executions in court, because the courts won't address them.

I did not say "impossible" - it is certainly possible to do so, but the courts, as they function currently, won't do it.

Please do not re-interpret my words to make your arguments. Again - you behave disrespectfully.

[matapule]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Go to Wikipedia and read about the history of capital punishment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment It won't change anyone's mind, but still very interesting reading. Take a look at the rogues gallery "global distribution" of capital punsihment and you will find that in 2009, the US was number 5 on the list (right there behind China, Iran, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia) with 52 executions last year. That's an average of 1 a week, every week of the year. Those 4 countries ahead of us are certainly some countries worth emulating as being enlightened and progressive. And yet, the US, at number 5 on the execution list, has a higher crime rate than those countries who do not have capital punishment. Go figure!

Anywho, here is a snippet from the citation with regards to DNA and the execution of innocents:

Wrongful execution is a miscarriage of justice occurring when an innocent person is put to death by capital punishment.[70] Many people have been proclaimed innocent victims of the death penalty.[71][72][73] Some have claimed that as many as 39 executions have been carried out in the U.S. in face of compelling evidence of innocence or serious doubt about guilt. Newly available DNA evidence has allowed the exoneration of more than 15 death row inmates since 1992 in the U.S.,[74] but DNA evidence is only available in a fraction of capital cases. In the UK, reviews prompted by the Criminal Cases Review Commission have resulted in one pardon and three exonerations with compensation paid for people executed between 1950 and 1953, when the execution rate in England and Wales averaged 17 per year.

[Kalalau]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Another big problem with the death penalty is trusting the government with the ultimate power. It is undeniable that innocent mistakes happen, a prosecutor or detectives, a jury, can make a sincere effort to be correct but fail. That is clear. It is also clear that government itself can become corrupted and evil. Recent history: Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, Maoist China, Castro's Cuba, on and on, the state with ultimate power of life and death and doling out death by the millions. A few centuries ago such abuses were common in France, England, Spain, and many other governments as well. Its just too much power to trust Big Government with. In America we have the example of the Japanese internment during WW2, the whole country went insane. In that case people were merely deprived of everything they owned and forced into concentration camps--bad enough. No trial, no due process, no appeal, just...gone, along with everything the family had accumulated. America is obviously not immune from collective mass insanity, if it happened once it can happen again. Hitler came to power when the Germany economy disintegrated, if the same thing happened here there is no assurance at all a similar nut case couldn't come to power here. So...if you think the government always exercises its power and always will exercise its power justly (take the IRS for example) then you should feel comfortable giving Big Government the ultimate power of life and death. Otherwise, caution might be a wiser approach.

[GregLee]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

And yet, the US, at number 5 on the execution list, has a higher crime rate than those countries who do not have capital punishment. Go figure!

I'm not quite understanding the difficulty you have, here. If the US has a higher crime rate, shouldn't it be more appropriate for us to have capital punishment -- to get rid of all those bad guys?