Statehood Day Holiday

[1stwahine]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

heheheh. I no need answer with my Full Brain capacity. Palolo Joe answered for me. Great powerful answer! I love it.

DONKEY!

Mahalo PJ!!!!

Auntie Lynn

[sinjin]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

That is the question smart people ask. That is the queston Timkona should be asking. Not if but who?

To his credit he did.

Are there any royal lineage descendants?

Who are they? Why don't we know who they are? I would love to know. Have they tired of the fight? Lord knows it must be a little tough to carry the weight of a monarchy on your shoulders. I'm sure it's a blessing & a curse.

Seems to me that the sovereignty movement would have a little more oomph if the royal family was somehow leading the fight. Or at least publicly promoted and acknowledged.

For once, I'm neither being logical nor argumentative. I hope I get a good answer.

[kamuelakea]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

To his credit he did.

Wrong.

Timkona asked who is the Royalty?

The question I suggested is "who is a Hawaiian" when it comes to any decisions on sovereignty.

They are completely different questions.

[sinjin]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

Wrong.

Timkona asked who is the Royalty?

The question I suggested is "who is a Hawaiian" when it comes to any decisions on sovereignty.
They are completely different questions.

Agreed. They are different questions.

So let's assume we want to make things right and give the rule back to the rightful parties. Who is that exactly, at this point? Who was it even back then, when the actions took place?

Can you see how I might interpret this as a question concerning who are the rightful rulers?

[sinjin]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

Depends who you ask. In my opinion, Hawaiian means 100% Hawaiian. There might be 1000 of them left. Some might argue to dilute that, so fine, lets say 50% Hawaiian.

Anyone less than 50% Hawaiian has more non-Hawaiian ancestors than Hawaiian (including me), so to me they don't count.

I could see this leading to some unfortunate situations. In effect someone hapa at 50% could be forced to surrender their children's birthrights by choosing to love and have children with someone who is hapa and less than 50%. Additionally someone born with a Hawaiian surname could be disqualified which seems counterproductive IMO.

[Jewlipino]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

Would a caucasian born and raised in Japan and who can write kanji be considered Japanese? Would a black man born and raised in Ireland be considered Irish? Would a South Korean born and raised in captivity in North Korea and who speaks Korean be considered North Korean? Would a Bosnian born and raised in Serbia be considered Serbian?

Yet another example of Jewlipino ignorance. I didn’t even address your Nationalist point, but I’m sure someone will. Ask a stupid question ...

Geez we can't go two steps around here without resorting to insults. It's not really a stupid question. If you consider it, even Mr. Dole (of the infamous Committee of Safety) was a Hawaiian, by virtue of being born in Hawaii and being a subject of the Hawaiian Kingdom. As far as the Kingdom was concerned, he was Hawaiian. Sure he was a of missionary descent and by his actions ultimately proved to be an enemy of the Kingdom. It doesn't seem like anyone remembers that during the Kingdom period there wasn't a rigid definition of Hawaiian that required that a person be a blood descendant, how that makes me ignorant is a little beyond me....

Jewlipino

[Jewlipino]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

You didn't ask me, but I'll answer anyway.

YES.

Donkey.

Again with the insults.

Jewlipino's list of people who can't get into a discussion w/o being rude:
Kamuelakea
Palolo Joe
Tunnl

The last official standard of 'Hawaiianness' that existed prior to the overthrow is that of being a subject of the Kingdom. If the Kingdom drew no disctinction based on race isn't anyone who was a subject of the Kingdom a Hawaiian?

Jewlipino

[Deep Thought]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

This whole thread looks controversial. Anyone want to weigh in on the Hawaiian side for a solution that would satisfy the need for Hawaiian self-determination?

[arturo_h]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

How come this question was never answered?

This is an honest question, not trying to snark:

The overthrow, bayonet constitution, and all that, is pretty obviously wrong, at least by the high standards the US claims to adhere to. So let's assume we want to make things right and give the rule back to the rightful parties. Who is that exactly, at this point? Who was it even back then, when the actions took place? If Hawai'i is to become its own democratic republic or whatnot separate from the US, then why is that any better than the situation you have now? (With the obvious exception of being able to control the flow of mainland, would then be "foreign", dollars and land ownership...) It'd be rough to tell people who'd lived there for many generations that they can't vote because they don't have the proper bloodline; but if you don't do that, then you're pretty much back where you started. Something a lot of people in the US are learning about democracy is that popular elections don't guarantee someone you like in power after a demographic shift.

I'm very curious as to what someone's answer to this question might be. If everyone can agree that what the US did was wrong and that what Sam Slom did was pretty stupid (although I don't think the Hawaiian activists acted in an appropriate matter either) what is the ultimate goal of these activists? I understand that ultimately the Hawaiian activists want to “right” something that was wrong, but what does that entail? I agree with Bard when he asked how becoming a sovereign nation would be any better than the current situation. Is it to control tourism, real estate, commerce, etc? Thanks.
-Arturo

[kamuelakea]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

The last official standard of 'Hawaiianness' that existed prior to the overthrow is that of being a subject of the Kingdom. If the Kingdom drew no disctinction based on race isn't anyone who was a subject of the Kingdom a Hawaiian?

Jewlipino

Site your source. Show me where Liliuokalani or any other Hawaiian admitted that the pure Haole Dole was a Hawaiian? He was a citizen, not a Hawaiian.

I'll wait cuz you ain't going to find it.

Being a resident of Oklahoma does not make you an Apache Indian.
Being a citizen of Hawaii, the State or Nation, does not make you a Hawaiian.

Why is this so hard for you?

You have that middle east way of talking. Duplicitous forked tongue word games to try to rationalize that a non-Hawaiian can be a Hawaiian. Hawaiian is Hawaiian. Citizen is Citizen. Immigrant is Immigrant. Look um up.

Someone else tried to give you a third grader example, horses aren't donkeys. Simple.

[kamuelakea]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

If the Kingdom drew no disctinction based on race isn't anyone who was a subject of the Kingdom a Hawaiian?

Jewlipino

If Hawaiians were in charge of Hawaii like Japanese are in charge of Japan or Tongans are in charge of Tonga, then they could decide what level of immigrations they would allow and what rules there would be on foreigners.

Right now Hawaiians have power over nothing in Hawaii because it was stolen by Haoles and democratically taken by Asians. Thats why the distinction should me made now.

[sinjin]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

It doesn't seem like anyone remembers that during the Kingdom period there wasn't a rigid definition of Hawaiian that required that a person be a blood descendant, how that makes me ignorant is a little beyond me....

Jewlipino

You are mistaken and therefore ignorant of history in this case. I'll see if I can find supporting evidence as I remember well reading it.

[sinjin]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

Is it to control tourism, real estate, commerce, etc? Thanks.
-Arturo

All those and most especially immigration as Kamuelakea has pointed out.

[TuNnL]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

If you consider it, even Mr. Dole (of the infamous Committee of Safety) was a Hawaiian, by virtue of being born in Hawaii and being a subject of the Hawaiian Kingdom.

You need to join timkona in taking Hawaiian 101 again. That is not an insult, it’s a fact. “Mister” Dole was NOT a Hawaiian. He was a citizen of the Hawaiian Kingdom. Two entirely different things.

[timkona]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

We still don't really know WHO the potential sovereign might be?
But that does not matter, because Hawaiians today do not want a monarchy. They simply want self-rule, which is something they have never had before. I think I understand this point now a lot better than when this thread started.

Hitler thought that blood quantum and race were excellent ways to define and separate people. Race was used as the defining criteria during 400 years of slavery also. Even today, in other places besides Hawaii, race is being used as a wedge between the people, often resulting in bloody conflict. History shows clearly that race is not a good criteria for any decision making.

Perhaps Hawaiians should villify their own who might procreate outside the race. "Hey Unco, dat wahine git da wrong color. No can."

Ah, but love is blind.