Statehood Day Holiday

[Miulang]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

That's not very fair. Miulang's suggestion about descent from a subject of the kingdom at the time of the overthrow seems better. Would that entitle descendants of members of the committee, the ones who were subjects, to benefits and a say as well?

If there was a way to determine if they had established permanent residence in Hawaii prior to 1897 I don't see why not. But I wouldn't extend that to the US military members or the advisers from the Mainland who only participated in certain acts and then skidaddled after the Bayonet Constitution was signed.

Miulang

[Bard]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

As I said before, I haven't really posted to this thread much because I don't feel all that qualified. I got Texas history instead of Hawaiian history, in school.

But since I got quoted I'll clarify my point a bit by saying a couple of people in the last few pages more or less got directly at what I was getting at. Which is that, practically speaking, it's going to be very difficult to come up with a designation for who is a rightful citizen of any new kingdom, republic, whatever. As long as that's elusive it's gonna be tough to move forwards with any unified front. Some compromises are probably going to have to be reached on both sides. The US is probably not going to be happy about giving up Hawai'i at this point either, apology or no. It's like trying to extract the Gatorade powder from the water after it's already been mixed: maybe it wasn't right that the reins of power were stolen, but a lot of people have lived and loved and cared for the land there since then, and there's a good argument that they deserve a place in whatever comes.

Interesting times.

Pre-apologies for any naivety in my post

[Miulang]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

As I said before, I haven't really posted to this thread much because I don't feel all that qualified. I got Texas history instead of Hawaiian history, in school.

But since I got quoted I'll clarify my point a bit by saying a couple of people in the last few pages more or less got directly at what I was getting at. Which is that, practically speaking, it's going to be very difficult to come up with a designation for who is a rightful citizen of any new kingdom, republic, whatever. As long as that's elusive it's gonna be tough to move forwards with any unified front. Some compromises are probably going to have to be reached on both sides. The US is probably not going to be happy about giving up Hawai'i at this point either, apology or no. It's like trying to extract the Gatorade powder from the water after it's already been mixed: maybe it wasn't right that the reins of power were stolen, but a lot of people have lived and loved and cared for the land there since then, and there's a good argument that they deserve a place in whatever comes.

Interesting times.

Pre-apologies for any naivety in my post

My vision wouldn't preclude kama'aina whose families arrived in Hawai'i post 1897 from remaining in Hawai'i. It would be more like being an American and living and working in Costa Rica or France. And I also stated that anyone who currently owned land would not have it taken away from them; it's the FUTURE ownership of State land that is what needs to be controlled by the government. If an American expatriate wanted to fully participate in the Hawaiian government, s/he would have to go through the same kind of citizenship criteria and testing that a foreign national needs to go through in order to become a naturalized citizen of the US. Then maybe, just maybe, people wouldn't take their citizenship so much for granted. All prospective Hawaiian citizens would have to learn about Hawaiian history at a very bare minimum and studying the language and culture would be strongly recommended. Otherwise, if you want to visit Hawai'i, you'd need a passport (but maybe not a visa because you don't need one to visit Canada or Mexico).
Miulang

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

In the meantime, I get lots of information from Uncle Williama who is very very close to the pulse of the kanaka maoli movement in Hawai'i. Everytime I see him, I talk story and listen to what he's heard via the coconut wireless from home.

Oh, Miulang, you have just mentioned one of my favorite resources. Can you imagine what it would be like if Uncle were here on HT? He is, as you noted, SO connected to so many sides in the Islands - he's descended from Hawaiian royalty as well. He has his opinions on how these issues should go, but he is so open to hearing all sides and perspectives.

[Miulang]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

Oh, Miulang, you have just mentioned one of my favorite resources. Can you imagine what it would be like if Uncle were here on HT? He is, as you noted, SO connected to so many sides in the Islands - he's descended from Hawaiian royalty as well. He has his opinions on how these issues should go, but he is so open to hearing all sides and perspectives.

Ho...plenty of people would get all bus' up if Uncle came to HT and started telling people what HE knows! Seriously, though, he keeps getting calls from the ohana in Hawai'i begging him to be a representative to the next Con Con but he's soooo busy with his new cafe (plus making stuff for Auntie Lynn's shop) I don't know when he'd have the time. He and I are going to have a manapua contest soon (he's going to start selling baked manapua he'll make himself in his store soon he said, but I told him I make mine steamed so we're going to trade manapua and see whose is better ). Have you tasted his mango smoothie with the lihing powder inside? I thought the powder would make it taste salty, but surprisingly, it only made the mango taste sweeter!

Miulang

[kamuelakea]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

My vision wouldn't preclude kama'aina whose families arrived in Hawai'i post 1897 from remaining in Hawai'i. If an American expatriate wanted to fully participate in the Hawaiian government, s/he would have to go through the same kind of citizenship criteria and testing that a foreign national needs to go through in order to become a naturalized citizen of the US. All prospective Hawaiian citizens would have to learn about Hawaiian history at a very bare minimum and studying the language and culture would be strongly recommended.
Miulang

This is the Hawaiian Wannabee plan. It creates a "club" for no reason. What is the sense of creating a "Hawaiian Nation" as a result of an illegal overthrow if it does not perpetuate Hawaiians, and I mean real Hawaiians?

This is like saying we have to save the Nene Goose so we are going to import a bunch of ducks from Oregon but no worry cuz we going paint um da same color as da Nene. Does that really save the Nene from extinction?

If the goal is to save these people who are on the verge of extinction, then we must do what it takes to save HAWAIIANS. That means 100%, 50% if you Chinese and like to barter. That's it. The "Tribe" would live in the old ways. They would have fishing rights out 3 miles. They would have land rights like Indian tribes. Nobody can fish cuz it's international waters. They would live a Hawaiian lifestyle, self sufficient and productive. They could not collect welfare.

Thats the only plan that would really work toward saving the race we all almost killed. Every other plan is just a "club". Useless.

[Miulang]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

Thats the only plan that would really work toward saving the race we all almost killed. Every other plan is just a "club". Useless.

Most of the kanaka maoli (50-100% blood quantum) live outside Hawai'i right now. What incentive would you give them to return to the 'aina?

Would you displace all the other people who might not be kanaka maoli? In that case, that would be about 75% of everybody who lives there today. If you wanted them to leave the islands, you would have to pay huuuuuge reparations to buy back property, etc. Would the new government be able to afford that?

Miulang

[kamuelakea]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

Most of the kanaka maoli (50-100% blood quantum) live outside Hawai'i right now. What incentive would you give them to return to the 'aina?

Would you displace all the other people who might not be kanaka maoli? In that case, that would be about 75% of everybody who lives there today. If you wanted them to leave the islands, you would have to pay huuuuuge reparations to buy back property, etc. Would the new government be able to afford that?

Miulang

Of course not. With my plan, it would only involve a few thousand Hawaiians cuz that's all there are 50% or greater. They would be given the government lands that were illegally transferred to the state. The Crown Lands. OHA is getting the money from those right now. That's all they would get. They could "trade" those lands for other tracts of land like Niihau (if the Robinsons wanted to sell) and Kahoolawe or Molokai Ranch etc. It would be Nations within a Nation like Indians. The rest of Hawaii's Wannabees could go on pretending just like they are doing now. At least then we could tell the difference between the real Hawaiians and the fake ones.

[Linkmeister]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

My vision wouldn't preclude kama'aina whose families arrived in Hawai'i post 1897 from remaining in Hawai'i. It would be more like being an American and living and working in Costa Rica or France. And I also stated that anyone who currently owned land would not have it taken away from them; it's the FUTURE ownership of State land that is what needs to be controlled by the government. If an American expatriate wanted to fully participate in the Hawaiian government, s/he would have to go through the same kind of citizenship criteria and testing that a foreign national needs to go through in order to become a naturalized citizen of the US.
Miulang

Uh-huh. Pardon my skepticism, but have you looked at Zimbabwe recently? All the good farmland has been expropriated by the government and passed out to people who don't know how to make use of it; consequently the country can't feed itself.

It's not the ag land that would concern me, but when the new government decides it wants Pearl Harbor, Schofield and KMCAS, or when it decides it wants Pearl City, Ewa Beach, Kapolei, Kahala and Makiki, then what?

Oh, and what about the people who live here who really like being citizens of the State of Hawai'i and don't have much interest in being expats in a new country they thought was part of the one they were born in? Tough luck, pal, sell your land and leave?

This ain't gonna happen in my lifetime if people are serious about fairly addressing the kinds of problems that would arise from questions like that.

In the time it took me to write that Miulang and Kamuelakea have already posted three new items, none of which I'd seen while writing this, some of which partially address my concerns.

[Miulang]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

It's not the ag land that would concern me, but when the new government decides it wants Pearl Harbor, Schofield and KMCAS, or when it decides it wants Pearl City, Ewa Beach, Kapolei, Kahala and Makiki, then what?

Oh, and what about the people who live here who really like being citizens of the State of Hawai'i and don't have much interest in being expats in a new country they thought was part of the one they were born in? Tough luck, pal, sell your land and leave?

This ain't gonna happen in my lifetime if people are serious about fairly addressing the kinds of problems that would arise from questions like that.

Since a sovereign nation needs a military to protect it from aggressors, why can't the new Hawaiian government sign a reciprocity treaty with the US that Hawaii will continue to allow Pearl Harbor to exist and the US government pays rent on the land and the property in exchange for providing a defensive shield against other aggressors? If the Hawaiian government wants Pearl City, Ewa Beach, etc., then they have to pay fair market value for that land and any improvements made to it, which of course would bankrupt the treasury which is why I'm sure THAT scenario would never happen.

I don't care that Zimbabweans were given fertile land that they didn't know how to farm. I know that the kanaka maoli came from an agrarian society and if given the chance, they CAN farm, they CAN fish, they CAN subsist. But what they also need is to have enough of a modern economy that can help keep the country competitive with the rest of the world. So I believe they are akamai enough to know that they still need others to help them keep the economy afloat. To have a sovereign nation that is completely populated only by 50-100% blood quantum kanaka maoli is a pipedream.

Miulang

[Linkmeister]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

Miulang sez:

To have a sovereign nation that is completely populated only by 50-100% blood quantum kanaka maoli is a pipedream.

Maybe so, but it's a pipedream a fair number of angry people seem to have. Or at least, a fair number who recognize how to get media attention.

[Miulang]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

Miulang sez:

Maybe so, but it's a pipedream a fair number (or at least, a fair number who recognize how to get media attention) of angry people seem to have

I know, I know. But I'm hopeful that the moderates (the pragmatists) in the movement can prevail in the end, because either extreme is never going to get anyone anywhere, and I sincerely do believe the kanaka maoli deserve a fair chance to try to regain the rights that were taken away from them.

Miulang

[Bard]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

This is the Hawaiian Wannabee plan. It creates a "club" for no reason. What is the sense of creating a "Hawaiian Nation" as a result of an illegal overthrow if it does not perpetuate Hawaiians, and I mean real Hawaiians?

There's a confusion of terminology happening in these sorts of discussions, I've noticed. This is a great example. There is a piece of land in the middle of the Pacific called "Hawai'i", which is governed by some governmental body. Right now that's the US. Later, it might be some independent government. Totally different thing than saying a "Hawaiian Nation", parallel to an "Indian Nation". Similarly you've got residents of Hawai'i being called "Hawaiians", like "Californians", and people of kanaka maoli ancestry, also called "Hawaiians".

I'm not trying to say one or the other is right, but it seems like half the arguments on this subject center around misunderstandings over those terms. For example it does seem ludicrous that non-ethnic-Hawaiians would be part of a Hawaiian Nation, in the Indian sense. But if you say "Hawai'i" and mean the land, and whatever government governs it in general.. yeah, they have to do something or other with all those other people already living there

[Jewlipino]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

If the activists dislike Statehood so much (that is where this whole thing started), they should vote people into office who will do what they're asking for. But secession is officially against the rules, the American Civil War settled that.

Jewlipino

[Miulang]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

But secession is officially against the rules, the American Civil War settled that.

Jewlipino

According to what I have discovered, that ineligibility only applied to states that joined the Confederacy by signing the articles of secession and whose legally elected officials voted to rescind the act of secession in the 1860s. Hawai'i was not a state in the 1860s, so I don't believe that if the State elected to petition to secede from the US that it would be illegal. In fact, according to this other article I found, the US Congress issued Joint Resolution 19 which was signed by Bill Clinton in 1993, in which the US officially apologized for 1893 overthrow of the sovereign goverment of Hawai'i and is what forms the legal basis for the Hawaiian sovereignty movement.

Miulang