Hui ordered to return objects to Bishop Museum

[Linkmeister]

Re: Hui ordered to return objects to Bishop Museum

But I respect greatly those who stand up with the courage to right a wrong.

But what about the wrong committed in lying to the Museum about the group's intentions when it initially "borrowed" the artifacts? Never mind the gullibility of Duckworth or whoever the director was at that point; the Museum was lied to by a man who'd formerly worked there (as employee or volunteer; I can't remember which) and was thus more or less trusted. Wrongly.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: Hui ordered to return objects to Bishop Museum

I'd like to respectfully ask why it is, then, that so very many Hawaiian chants are genealogical histories?

That is an excellent question. And the answers are numerous. Nowadays, so many chants are done openly and for entertainment. Not so back then. One didn't hear them until the passing of a chief, or as protocol for challenges between ali'i, to see who had greater rank, and it was a great way to start wars. If you were maka'ainana and you tried to ho'olanilani yourself, by bleaching your bones, or marrying a close relative (to preserve blood/mana), that was taken as a direct challenge to the ali'i of the area, and death was a frequent result.

Remember, genealogical chants were not composed with the general public in mind. These were the curriculum for a specific training of a select few. Over hundreds and hundreds of years. And it was relied upon as recently as 150 years ago, to determine who would rule after the Kamehameha; the Hale Naua spanned several weeks and the genealogies of Lunalilo bested that of Kalakaua.

But time does march on. For example, when Kamakau started putting them onto paper, he was a Christian, and followed in the footsteps of his ali'i contemporaries who defiled the old ways under the protection of Iesu Kristo. Still, he was a "museum" kinda guy, and believed what he was trained to commit to memory was a gift to be shared with all. And if not for people like him, we wouldn't have those treasures today.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: Hui ordered to return objects to Bishop Museum

But what about the wrong committed in lying to the Museum about the group's intentions when it initially "borrowed" the artifacts? Never mind the gullibility of Duckworth or whoever the director was at that point; the Museum was lied to by a man who'd formerly worked there (as employee or volunteer; I can't remember which) and was thus more or less trusted. Wrongly.

yep. Which is my point when I said earlier in my gramma analogy, they "feel that what they have done was ultimately right enough to make their wrongs understandable."

They used cunning to get those artifacts out of the door. And I agree with you. That was hewa.

[alohabear]

Re: Hui ordered to return objects to Bishop Museum

Hawaiians fighting Hawaiians....Auwe! No wonder according to Kau Inoa ads they are gonna be "history" if they don't work together.

[pzarquon]

Re: Hui ordered to return objects to Bishop Museum

There is some argument that they were simply hidden in caves after the 1819 abolishment of native religion. Some are saying that the idols and other pieces were hidden to keep them from being destroyed.

This was my reading of it as well. It's unclear what the original intent was. For Hui Malama to declare they know What Is Right(tm) is distressing to me. They certainly don't speak for me, nor Zztype, so any assertion on behalf of "all Hawaiians" actually angers me.

The staged theatrics in court yesterday was also ridiculous, and certainly doesn't help their credibility.

I also think that, independent of intent, Bishop Museum is a reasonable custodian of artifacts right now. Especially given the current Hawaiians vs. Hawaiians fight -- of all parties, they seem to be, incredibly enough, the most objective. Ezra's solution seemed more than reasonable. Let the museum, which has the expertise and facilities, house these things while all stakeholders -- including, but not solely, Hui Malama -- work out what should be done.

Yet Hui Malama feels its way supercedes all others, and resorts to melodrama and martyrdom to serve purposes that are unclear, but most certainly are not to the benefit of "all Hawaiians."

[Linkmeister]

Re: Hui ordered to return objects to Bishop Museum

The Associated Press picked up the story:

http://travel2.nytimes.com/2005/12/2...artifacts.html

[Menehune Man]

Re: Hui ordered to return objects to Bishop Museum

The whole situation weirds me out. I think about it this way:

Gramma has a couple of grandkids. When Gramma dies, she gets buried with her wedding ring on. Decades go by, and one of the grandkids digs up her grave to get those rings. The grandkid has the best intentions: those rings are set in a style not seen nowadays and you cannot find gemstones like that anymore. S/he wants those rings to be preserved and makes every effort to find a good museum so that anyone and everyone can see that glimpse of the past.

Over time, another grandkid gets wicked huhu over the situation. Gramma was buried with her rings for her reasons; not for the grandkids'. This grandkid feels a moral obligation to return those rings to lie with the dead. S/he will do whatever needs to happen to return them. Let history move on; but leave the dead in sacred peace.

Neither grandkid speaks for the other, and both feel that what they have done was ultimately right enough to make their wrongs understandable.

I think you created a great analogy. Because both sides do feel that what they wish is the best and more importantly 'correct' thing to do. Mahalo.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: Hui ordered to return objects to Bishop Museum

...and digging this up from the advertiser two months ago:

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/ar...511060309.html

[damontucker]

Re: Hui ordered to return objects to Bishop Museum

After talking to a couple family members that are linked to Hui members whether it be by blood or whatever....It was brought to my attention... that some evidence will shortly come out that proves that Bishop Museum knew what they were doing was not quite legal... however there was a "cover-up" conspiracy.

I will leave it at that for now... and if anyone wants to discuss it further or research it further... they may...

I'm sure the truth will come out within the next 6 months.

[damontucker]

Re: Hui ordered to return objects to Bishop Museum

After talking to a couple family members that are linked to Hui members whether it be by blood or whatever....It was brought to my attention... that some evidence will shortly come out that proves that Bishop Museum knew what they were doing was not quite legal... however there was a "cover-up" conspiracy.

I will leave it at that for now... and if anyone wants to discuss it further or research it further... they may...

I'm sure the truth will come out within the next 6 months.

And just remember you heard it here first on Hawaiithreads

[Miulang]

Re: Hui ordered to return objects to Bishop Museum

And just remember you heard it here first on Hawaiithreads

I was talking to Uncle Williama Aven here in Seattle about the Hui Malama situation. As Uncle Williama put it, "would you want your grandma's bones and the things she was buried with in a secret cave to be put into a museum for everyone to see?" Heck no, I said! The Bishop Museum's interest in having the 'iwi and artifacts is purely financial and has nothing to do with the preservation of the kanaka maoli culture. Same thing with some of the 'oli and kahiko that were "reserved" for families. Now some of it is being presented to the tourist trade...preserving the culture, yeah right. Show me the money.

Miulang

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: Hui ordered to return objects to Bishop Museum

I am really trying to educate myself on this issue and know a few people intimate with both sides of this case. One thing I said earlier that I must retract is calling HM "hewa" for taking the "loaned" bones and burying it. Hui Malama only gets involved when it has to do with repatriation.

I have been asking these people questions and the responses are interesting. That said, it is still premature for me to write about it, although I look forward to the next couple of days and hope to post as I learn more about the moepu.

[alohabear]

Re: Hui ordered to return objects to Bishop Museum

Now that Judge Ezra said Native Hawaiians must settle with Native Hawaiians with ho'oponopono the issue with the cultural objects that Hui Malama stole from the Bishop Museum, do you think they can put aside thier differences to find a solution?

IMO, they will try ,but attitude and pride will NOT let any solution be found and the Judge will make the final say.

[Peshkwe]

Re: Hui ordered to return objects to Bishop Museum

The request for repatriation was started in 1994...umm....did no one think at the time that they might have to actually give the things back for reburial? They don't have any pictures or diagrams of construction of the items done for study for all that time they had em?

Is there anything prohibitive about making accurate replicas using modern, like looking, materials for display and annotating that they are accurate replicas (or needs be, altered slightly with annotations to respect the religious -not for open display- use of the originals) with the original items having been repatriated and properly reburied?

Just a thought

[Menehune Man]

Re: Hui ordered to return objects to Bishop Museum

Is there anything prohibitive about making accurate replicas using modern, like looking, materials for display and annotating that they are accurate replicas (or needs be, altered slightly with annotations to respect the religious -not for open display- use of the originals) with the original items having been repatriated and properly reburied?

That's good thinking there Peshwe. Study and Copy the originals of anything that 'needs' to be repatriated. Sounds like a win/win situation to me.