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  • PoiBoy
    replied
    Re: UH Haka

    Pua'i Mana'o- I fail to see your point?

    Do you disagree that it's the Maori's decision who get's to use their haka?

    They have already said they don't wan't UH to use it. So what's to debate. I try to be respectful to you Pua'i Mana'o ...as I respect all Polynesian elders...but sometimes I wonder whos side you are on. Either you are trying to test me or you don't like me. Maybe both.

    But please state your point.
    Last edited by PoiBoy; January 23, 2007, 03:38 PM.

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  • Pua'i Mana'o
    replied
    Re: UH Haka

    Originally posted by PoiBoy View Post
    I don't remember using the word "cool"


    Originally Posted by PoiBoy
    The Maori get to decide who uses their haka. It's not up for debate because it's THEIR haka and THEIR decision. They can do whatever they see fit with the haka because its THEIRS. Besides the Maori love the AB's. It's usually a Maori leading the Haka.
    --------------------------------------
    ONCE AGAIN...That tribes leaders speak on behalf of that tribe.

    So what exactly is your point?
    PB, remember what you once said to me in another thread about not being able to speak for our people? This sort of romantic naivete about a lahui™ speaking for their own® is exactly that barrier that frustrates a multitude of native advances. Kiwidiva herself willingly identified a few controversies surrounding haka and its performance amongst her own.

    You have shown before your reluctance to cast such a blanket. Now is no different.

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  • PoiBoy
    replied
    Re: UH Haka

    Originally posted by scrivener View Post
    Okay, but that's not what you said. You said it's cool because the Maori "love" the All Blacks. Do tribal leaders speak on behalf of the tribes regarding matters of taste?
    I don't remember using the word "cool"


    Originally Posted by PoiBoy
    The Maori get to decide who uses their haka. It's not up for debate because it's THEIR haka and THEIR decision. They can do whatever they see fit with the haka because its THEIRS. Besides the Maori love the AB's. It's usually a Maori leading the Haka.
    --------------------------------------
    ONCE AGAIN...That tribes leaders speak on behalf of that tribe.

    So what exactly is your point?
    Last edited by PoiBoy; January 23, 2007, 03:16 PM.

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  • Leo Lakio
    replied
    Re: UH Haka

    Originally posted by Wixxy View Post
    Yes, but my point was that Kapa O Pango, which is what UH is using, was created specifically for the All Blacks. Unlike 'Ka Mate', 'Kapa O Pango' is copyrighted.
    Thanks for the additional focus, Wixxy. It sounds like that copyright may be in question, according to the article you cited:
    The ka mate haka used by the All Blacks since 1905 is a variation of a dance invented in 1820 by Te Rauparaha, chief of the Ngati-Toa tribe. For much of the past decade a trust representing the tribe fought - and ultimately lost - a battle to register copyright of the haka's words. However, it is understood copyright does exist on a new and controversial version of the haka first performed by the New Zealand team last year.
    The highlighted section is a little vague - but that's what keeps attorneys busy, isn't it?

    And it sounds like the UH recognizes that the issue isn't clearly defined yet either, but is investigating the legal issues and NOT using the likely-copyrighted version now (from same article):
    ... the lawyers have been called in and players have been told to do a new version of the war dance. Herman Frazier, the university's athletic director, confirmed the university's legal department were looking into the issue but he added, "We don't believe we're violating any copyright laws at this time."
    So, if the UH has stopped doing the possibly-copyrighted version (which seems the proper action to take), do we go back to discussing the appropriateness of using ANY version of a Maori haka, out of cultural respect rather than legal concern (as I asked earlier?)

    ETA: ...or is the "new" UW version still close enough to the copyrighted All Blacks version that it's likely to be recognized as such? Regardless, I lean towards the side of those who argue, legal or not, it's about respect for the ways of another's culture, and that people in Hawai`i have even more reason to be sensitive to this concern.
    Last edited by Leo Lakio; January 23, 2007, 03:35 PM.

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  • Wixxy
    replied
    Re: UH Haka

    Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
    Under the circumstanced described, traditional Maori haka are unlikely to be protected as material of registered copyright under New Zealand law. Thus the rules of the Berne Convention do not apply. (U.S. copyright law is irrelevant.) As several people have noted, it's more a matter of cultural respect, not legal protection.
    Yes, but my point was that Kapa O Pango, which is what UH is using, was created specifically for the All Blacks. Unlike 'Ka Mate', 'Kapa O Pango' is copyrighted.

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  • scrivener
    replied
    Re: UH Haka

    Originally posted by PoiBoy View Post
    The Maori are broken up into different tribes(iwi) and subtribes(hapu). That tribes leaders speak on behalf of that tribe.

    The tribe Ngati Toa owns the "ka mate". And they gave permision for the AB's to use their "ka mate". As for the "Kapa O Pango" it was created specifically for the AB's by Maori Ngati Porou's Derek Lardelli. Derek Lardelli received his tribes blessing.
    Okay, but that's not what you said. You said it's cool because the Maori "love" the All Blacks. Do tribal leaders speak on behalf of the tribes regarding matters of taste?

    Leave a comment:


  • Leo Lakio
    replied
    Re: UH Haka

    Originally posted by Wixxy View Post
    According to US copyright laws...This is all echoed in the Berne Convention, which most countries use as a basis for copyright protection. If the All Blacks have asked them to stop using a copyrighted piece - either the lyrics/words or choreography - in a public setting, it's pretty clearly defined. If the Maori have asked them to stop doing a Haka that they consider special or sacred, then they need to respect their wishes. PoiBoy has stated that UH doing the Haka without permission of the Maori constitutes stealing, which I agree with. Not to mention that it's in bad taste.
    Originally posted by PoiBoy View Post
    The Maori are broken up into different tribes(iwi) and subtribes(hapu). That tribes leaders speak on behalf of that tribe.
    Under the circumstanced described, traditional Maori haka are unlikely to be protected as material of registered copyright under New Zealand law. Thus the rules of the Berne Convention do not apply. (U.S. copyright law is irrelevant.) As several people have noted, it's more a matter of cultural respect, not legal protection.

    Leave a comment:


  • PoiBoy
    replied
    Re: UH Haka

    Originally posted by scrivener View Post
    Okay, but who are "the Maori?" What if fifty percent of Maori say they DON'T like the All Blacks and DON'T want the team to use the haka? Where's the cutoff, then? What if five percent disagree with the team's use?

    I agree with the ownership thing, but I just don't see how you can make a statement like, "the Maori love the ABs." I'm sure I could find one Maori somewhere who roots for South Africa in the Tri-Nations Series, and what then?
    The Maori are broken up into different tribes(iwi) and subtribes(hapu). That tribes leaders speak on behalf of that tribe.

    The tribe Ngati Toa owns the "ka mate". And they gave permision for the AB's to use their "ka mate". As for the "Kapa O Pango" it was created specifically for the AB's by Maori Ngati Porou's Derek Lardelli. Derek Lardelli received his tribes blessing.
    Last edited by PoiBoy; January 23, 2007, 12:54 PM.

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  • jkpescador
    replied
    Re: UH Haka

    I don't know if the haka is bringing so much bad press. The football fans love it. The haka is done before the game and after. I think there are videos of the haka at every game this season. I think you may seen even more teams with polynesians doing the haka at all levels of football.

    Bad press is the polynesian Oregon players getting all riled up at BYU doing the haka in Las Vegas before their bowl game.

    "During a Las Vegas Bowl pep rally, several Oregon and BYU players ended up in a shoving match after the BYU players did their Haka dance".
    http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...las+vegas+haka

    WSJ article on haka ... Tongan War Dance
    http://www.trinitytrojanfootball.com...631624627.html
    A Tongan War Dance
    Enlivens Football
    In Euless, Texas

    Leave a comment:


  • Wixxy
    replied
    Re: UH Haka

    So I've said it's wrong in all aspects, I guess Im still not right because I didn't define it well enough.

    According to US copyright laws, the following is protected:

    § 102. Subject matter of copyright: In general26

    (a) Copyright protection subsists, in accordance with this title, in original works of authorship fixed in any tangible medium of expression, now known or later developed, from which they can be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated, either directly or with the aid of a machine or device. Works of authorship include the following categories:
    (1) literary works;
    (2) musical works, including any accompanying words;
    (3) dramatic works, including any accompanying music;
    (4) pantomimes and choreographic works;
    (5) pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works;
    (6) motion pictures and other audiovisual works;
    (7) sound recordings; and
    (8) architectural works.
    (b) In no case does copyright protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery, regardless of the form in which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work.

    This is all echoed in the Berne Convention, which most countries use as a basis for copyright protection.

    If the All Blacks have asked them to stop using a copyrighted piece - either the lyrics/words or choreography - in a public setting, it's pretty clearly defined.
    If the Maori have asked them to stop doing a Haka that they consider special or sacred, then they need to respect their wishes. PoiBoy has stated that UH doing the Haka without permission of the Maori constitutes stealing, which I agree with. Not to mention that it's in bad taste.

    Scrivener, you stated that there are several different levels that UH is wrong about this and I wholeheartedly agree.

    If I say it's wrong on all the levels and state why, how is this wrong?

    Maybe I'm missing something or not putting it the right way......

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  • Leo Lakio
    replied
    Re: UH Haka

    Originally posted by scrivener View Post
    Owning the copyright to a work does not prevent others from performing it. ... I guess what I'm saying is that if the team does it in the privacy of its own locker room, it can pretty much do what it wants, even if it wants to call itself the All Blacks. Once it steps out on the field, I think it falls into the realm of performance licensing, and that's not an easy thing to interpret, if you ask me.
    I'm glad you looked into this further, scrivener. Copyright of artistic works can and do often include performance restrictions - the copywritten choreography of a Twyla Tharp work, for example, prevents other dance ensembles from performing it without her permission.
    As you noted, it's when you move into "public performance" that the restrictions apply. A dance troupe could use the Tharp movements for private, in-studio practice and warm-up, for example. If one of the dancers videotaped it so they could practice at home, that's also acceptable use. But if they post said video on YouTube, then you have copyright violation - but by the taper/poster, not by the troupe.

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  • scrivener
    replied
    Re: UH Haka

    Originally posted by PoiBoy View Post
    The Maori get to decide who uses their haka. It's not up for debate because it's THEIR haka and THEIR decision. They can do whatever they see fit with the haka because its THEIRS. Besides the Maori love the AB's. It's usually a Maori leading the Haka.
    Okay, but who are "the Maori?" What if fifty percent of Maori say they DON'T like the All Blacks and DON'T want the team to use the haka? Where's the cutoff, then? What if five percent disagree with the team's use?

    I agree with the ownership thing, but I just don't see how you can make a statement like, "the Maori love the ABs." I'm sure I could find one Maori somewhere who roots for South Africa in the Tri-Nations Series, and what then?

    Leave a comment:


  • scrivener
    replied
    Re: UH Haka

    Originally posted by Wixxy View Post
    It mentions that the one used now, the Kapa O Pango Haka, with the 'throat-slashing gesture', is copyrighted. I don't see how UH would have a leg to stand on legally.
    You don't? That's odd, because (and believe me when I say I seriously don't give a rip one way or the other what the football team does) I don't see how there's even a case here. Owning the copyright to a work does not prevent others from performing it.

    Again, if you think it a cultural abomination for this football team to perform it, that's one thing. If you think it a legal violation, that's another. If you think it's just an outrage that one football team is copying the pregame ritual of a rugby team somewhere else, that is yet another. As for the article you link, it is difficult to read past the headline, since it says that the "controversy rages on." Really? I'd hardly call the discussion I've seen here or anywhere else anything close to "raging."

    Copyright infringement is something I take very seriously, but this doesn't even come close.

    edit:

    Okay, I just read a boatload of info about performance copyright, and I'll admit that it's a murkier issue than I thought when I wrote anything I've posted in this thread. If the creator of the haka grants permission only to the All Blacks (or grants permission for only the All Blacks to determine how it's used), there might be an issue here ('though certainly not so clear-cut an issue as to say UH-Manoa doesn't "have a leg to stand on"). However, if the football team is doing the haka in its own locker room, I think there's no way this can be seen as a public performance, and is therefore pretty much the same as if I did the haka myself in the privacy of my own home. If the haka is broadcast in any way, it probably qualifies as a public performance, except if some third party records it without the team's knowledge and posts it, say, to YouTube.

    I guess what I'm saying is that if the team does it in the privacy of its own locker room, it can pretty much do what it wants, even if it wants to call itself the All Blacks. Once it steps out on the field, I think it falls into the realm of performance licensing, and that's not an easy thing to interpret, if you ask me. I used to direct plays, and we had to get very strict permission from licensors just to stage our plays, and then there were all kinds of restrictions placed on what we could and could not do: Even modifying the script to take out profanity was a violation without special permission from the playwright.

    I will again advise those who want the football team to stop the haka thing to be very clear in their expression of what displeases them. If it is a cultural offense, say so, and keep it there before moving on to whatever legal issues you think there are. Muddying the issue by combining the two offenses is not leading anywhere in this thread.
    Last edited by scrivener; January 23, 2007, 07:08 AM.

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  • Wixxy
    replied
    Re: UH Haka

    Just found this link to a website in Wales about the row over the ka mate Haka.

    It says pretty much the same thing we've seen in the other articles, but does talk about a failed attempt by the AB's the copyright of the original Haka.

    It mentions that the one used now, the Kapa O Pango Haka, with the 'throat-slashing gesture', is copyrighted. I don't see how UH would have a leg to stand on legally.

    I wonder if UH knows how much bad press this is bringing to the football team?

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  • PoiBoy
    replied
    Re: UH Haka

    The Maori get to decide who uses their haka. It's not up for debate because it's THEIR haka and THEIR decision. They can do whatever they see fit with the haka because its THEIRS. Besides the Maori love the AB's. It's usually a Maori leading the Haka.

    Leave a comment:

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