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  • i-hungry
    replied
    Re: UH Haka

    Wouldn't Maori ancestors consider rugby hakas as something inappropriate too? Its not a real war. Its not a welcoming dance or funeral. Its just a game where the players earn money.

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  • jkpescador
    replied
    Re: UH Haka

    This board may be about Hawaii but in this case I don't think you can single out UH. A lot of this "tradition" is brought about at a younger age. If the Kahuku football team does the haka and these same students go on the play at the UH they will continue to do it. You must educate the young ones as well as the ones on the US mainland. Perhaps some of these youths will learn enough to compose a haka for their specific team.

    Hawaii Bowl
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=unx6Gv4X2k4

    Moanalua HS
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=wKrBU4US-Bs

    Kahuku
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=h98B7bF7l8Y

    BYU
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=d7eRXlvBWu8

    Texas Tech
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=EOmZuTadywc

    Trinity HS
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=iIcmImuUedY


    Because there is not enough time to create a new haka for Saturday's game, the Warriors will use a variation of the one they performed all season.

    For the bowl game, the Warriors will perform a haka "specifically made for us," Esera said.

    As with the current haka, Esera said, "we can't do it ourselves. We'll go to someone with knowledge. We know people." - HonoluluAdvertiser
    http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/ar...611290353.html
    Last edited by jkpescador; January 22, 2007, 08:06 PM.

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  • Miulang
    replied
    Re: UH Haka

    Originally posted by LikaNui View Post
    Hmmm. If that was true (and that's a big "if"), why don't we hear more about that in the media? Why don't we hear about big fines? Exactly how and where are they polluting?
    I'm against flooding our waters (no pun intended) with cruise ships, but I'm equally against vague generalizations and sweeping statements that are not based on facts.
    Appreciate it if you could provide documentation. Thanks.
    The current "gentleman's agreement" between the cruise lines and the State says that they shouldn't be dumping their waste water or any other garbage within 4 miles of shore. However, there are currently no fines associated with illegal dumping, which is part of the problem. PB gave you the URL for the main Kahea website, but for facts, you need to go to the brochure Kahea has produced about the problem.

    Miulang

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  • PoiBoy
    replied
    Re: UH Haka

    http://www.kahea.org/ocean/


    Kahea is adamantly opposed to the Cruiseship industry in Hawaii because they pollute our waters.
    Is Kahea opposed to the cruiseship industry or opposed to the pollution cause by the industry? From what i've read it's the pollution and how far in the coastline the cruiseships dump their waste. Looks like they are working on protecting Hawai‘i’s coast.

    The new Act would:
    Allow no dumping of sewage, graywater, oily bilge within 12 miles of any shore
    Empower the Coast Guard and the Environmental Protection Agency to determine standards for sewage and graywater discharged beyond the 12 mile-point and charges the Coast Guard and EPA with enforcing the standards
    Allows for cruise ships to have their pollution control equipment inspected
    Protects cruise ship employees who report polluting activities onboard vessels
    Allows citizens to launch civil action against any vessel or carrier in violation of the Act.


    Half truths are whole lies.
    Last edited by PoiBoy; January 21, 2007, 08:18 PM.

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  • LikaNui
    replied
    Re: UH Haka

    Originally posted by Keanu View Post
    adamantly opposed to the Cruiseship industry in Hawaii because they pollute our waters.
    Hmmm. If that was true (and that's a big "if"), why don't we hear more about that in the media? Why don't we hear about big fines? Exactly how and where are they polluting?
    I'm against flooding our waters (no pun intended) with cruise ships, but I'm equally against vague generalizations and sweeping statements that are not based on facts.
    Appreciate it if you could provide documentation. Thanks.

    Leave a comment:


  • Keanu
    replied
    Re: UH Haka

    Originally posted by kiwidiva View Post
    Off my original subject but along the lines of issues that you (Scrivener) have raised, I just read an article about Ho'okipa Aloha, a program launched by NCL America's Pride of Hawai'i to give their cruise passengers a real view of hula by using actual halau rather than a show troupe. The shows are designed by respected kumu hula (such as Victoria Holt Takamine & Mapuana Da Silva) and performed by members of their halau. The kumu are using the program to not just entertain the passengers but to EDUCATE them as well. They are also breaking the stereotype of the slender hula dancer by using dancers of all shapes and sizes. They then use the money they make from these performances to benefit their halau and help pay for uniforms and traveling expenses.

    The interesting connection here is that Vicky Holt Takamine is the President of Kahea's Board of Directors. For those of you that don't know, Kahea is a Hawaiian enviornmental alliance that is comprised of a network of activists. Kahea is adamantly opposed to the Cruiseship industry in Hawaii because they pollute our waters.

    Leave a comment:


  • PoiBoy
    replied
    Re: UH Haka

    Originally posted by Wixxy View Post
    Again, is it more disrespectful for a haole woman to dance a hula that she knows and understands and respects as part of a culture she embraces, even though it is not her own heritage;
    No one is talking about "haole woman dancing hula" being dissrespectful. If you dance properly and are taught by a True Hawaiian Kahuna of Hula ....then I don't see how it would be "disrespectful". A Hawaiian Kahuna will let you know when you're wrong and teach you the do's and don'ts. But being taught by a Kahuna does not make you a Kahuna.(I know you never said you were).

    But NONE of this can be applied to "haka". As you know "Haka" belongs to the Maori and Maori ONLY. The Maori do not accept exploitation nor will they tolerate it.

    or is it disrespectful for someone of Hawaiian heritage to half-ass their way through a saccharine display for commercial reasons?
    Are you talking about touristic hawaii?
    Expand on this for me. Define "commercial reasons". Some youth trying to support their way through college?
    Do you blame those who are being exploited?...or those who exploit? Answer that and you will see my point.
    I don't want to offend anyone on this site anymore than I already have. So feel free to PM me if you wish.

    kiwidiva- Kia Ora. I have learned alot from the Maori when it comes to what is "tapu" in my own culture. Being Samoan I have greater appreciation of the right's that have been bestowed upon me by my ancestors. And I believe it is our job to protect those rights from exploitation. I commend you for educating non-maori and pakeha. The Maori are such a proud beautiful people. Lucky you.
    Last edited by PoiBoy; January 21, 2007, 03:22 PM.

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  • Wixxy
    replied
    Re: UH Haka

    Not sure if my original post was misunderstood, but if the UH football team has copied someone else's haka - a group with such a long and storied history, no less - and that group has asked them to stop using it, it's a no-brainer. UH should stop using it.

    At no time did I say that I thought they should keep doing it. IMHO, even changing a few words or lines isn't enough to keep it original. The heart of it(if not the license and ownership itself) still belongs to the AB's.

    The only right thing to do is come up with their own tradition, whether it be a haka, fa'ataupati, or any other dance that represents the heritage of Hawaii, whether it be ancient or recent.

    Leave a comment:


  • kiwidiva
    replied
    Re: UH Haka

    JKPeskador, I realize that UH are not the only team doing a Maori haka - although to my knowledge they are the only ones doing the Kapa O Pango haka, which was written especially for the All Blacks. Not even other teams in Aotearoa dare to do that haka.

    I did read that UH was changing their haka for the Hawai'i Bowl (after being made aware of the possible legal repercussions of using a copyrighted work) but unless they came up with something totally original, it's still inappropriate.

    Just because so many teams are doing it, does not make it right (I read that NMSU did do a haka before their game against UH, they just did theirs in the dressing room before they came out onto the field.)

    I only posted about UH here because this board is about Hawai'i (I'm hoping that if they change their haka, the high schools will make changes too) but the haka performed by BYU is also controversial. Just read Utah journalist David James' article, "The haka must be stopped" to see what kind of emotions it is raising in that state.
    http://kutv.com/davidjames/local_story_355013842.html

    Wixxy, thanks for joining the discussion and raising some interesting points. I believe that if UH came up with something totally original that was written to honor the school and the team, then it would be appropriate for it to be performed by whoever puts on that UH jersey. The Kapa O Pango haka was written for the All Blacks and is in the Maori language using a Maori dance (because they are representing Aotearoa) but it honors all the players past and present who play for the All Blacks, no matter what their heritage is.

    Poiboy & Miulang - that's my point exactly!

    Leave a comment:


  • Wixxy
    replied
    Re: UH Haka

    Originally posted by PoiBoy View Post
    It's oh so simple...the Maori of Aotearoa don't want UH to use it. The All blacks don't want UH to use it.
    If this is the case, the UH football players should stop doing the haka. It doesn't get any plainer than that.

    It does not matter what you "felt". The indigenous people make that decisions. Hawaiian people are very giving...and they allow people to do certain hula nowadays. Maori of Aotearoa are not giving. They make the decisions NOT you or me.
    Point taken, but I think you were confusing my comment about hula with the comment about the haka. As far as me making a decision on anything, I stated my feelings. I speak for myself and no one else. I'm sure that I was pretty clear in my earlier post, but if not, let me reiterate I was stating an opinion.

    Again, is it more disrespectful for a haole woman to dance a hula that she knows and understands and respects as part of a culture she embraces, even though it is not her own heritage; or is it disrespectful for someone of Hawaiian heritage to half-ass their way through a saccharine display for commercial reasons?

    Isn't education and understanding part of keeping the Hawaiian spirit and culture alive?

    Or is it just part of the old beliefs that I faced growing up that since I was just a 'dumb haole who stole my land' (Yes, I heard that growing up) that I shouldn't love, respect, and embrace the Hawaiian culture?

    Leave a comment:


  • Miulang
    replied
    Re: UH Haka

    One simple way to get around the controversy: instead of calling it a "haka", which is a word that one usually associates with the Maori, why not call it "ha'a" (which apparently is an old word for hula). Ha'a were used in lua (war games, not the crapper). I know when pronounced, "ha'a" sounds like "haka" but it would probably be more correct to use in Hawai'i, although apparently the word haka can also be used. Of course, the words of the UH "ha'a" should reflect Hawai'i and the kanaka maoli, and not the Maori, in deference to the Maori.

    Miulang

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  • PoiBoy
    replied
    Re: UH Haka

    It's oh so simple...the Maori of Aotearoa don't want UH to use it. The All blacks don't want UH to use it.

    I've always felt that it doesn't matter who is doing it or where it's done, a hula done to honor Hawaiian traditions is always acceptable.
    It does not matter what you "felt". The indigenous people make that decisions. Hawaiian people are very giving...and they allow people to do certain hula nowadays. Maori of Aotearoa are not giving. They make the decisions NOT you or me. The UH of all universities should have known better.

    Leave a comment:


  • Wixxy
    replied
    Re: UH Haka

    I'm a recent member on the board and stumbled onto this post late as well, but I'd like to humbly add my wisdom (or show a lack thereof )

    Scrivener, your post was well-thought out and definitely well written.

    Originally posted by scrivener View Post
    Let's take that second issue first. If the UH-Manoa football team is copying something written for and performed by a New Zealand rugby team, I will agree that it is lame. However, copyright laws (at least in America; I won't even pretend to know the first thing about international copyright law) do not cover performance.

    Oh, and I don't know if you know this, but that "Hawaii Five-O" music that the Manoa band plays? That was from a television show.
    I normally would agree with this line of thought, but if it is something that the AB RC has been doing for 100 years, it's safe to say that it would be considered a tradition in and of itself. For UH to use the haka, I think would be crossing the line of good sportsmanship. I understand wanting to use something unique to the Pacific and honor the heritage of the Hawaiian people, but if it really is that important, I feel it's worth coming up with a haka that truly is unique to Hawaii and/or UH.

    Regarding the use of Hawaii Five-O by the UH band, when they purchased the sheet music, they buy the license to play it freely. This license/royalty fee is included in the cost of the sheet music.

    But a lot depends on the spirit in which it is intended. When a hula halau in Texas, made up mostly of non-islanders, performs on the mainland, is it an exloitation or does it honor the culture and traditions that surround the dance? On the other hand, when dancers perform hula on those boats that leave Honolulu every evening loaded with tourists, is it just as honoring, or is it mostly commercial?

    Of course the answer is not easy. I've known people who dance in those shows, and they say that every minute of it honors their culture. This may be true, but what if the overall intent is simply to make money or to perpetuate some kind of visitors' vision of what Hawaii is suppsed to be? Then, while my friends may have nothing but noble intentions, the people providing the venue do not, and hula is merely a commercial venture. On still another hand, if those business-people are going to hire SOMEONE to dance, is it not better that those dancers be people who know and honor the traditions, rather than someone who learns a few steps just for the show?
    I've always felt that it doesn't matter who is doing it or where it's done, a hula done to honor Hawaiian traditions is always acceptable. When I was in elementary school, I danced hula for the May Day shows and quite a few local kids gave me hell about doing it because I'm haole and 'had no right to do it.' But the same kids who gave me hell for it would complain about doing it and actually tried to get out of it as much as possible. As I grew older, I learned as much about hula (and Hawaiian history) as I could, while the naysayers just went about living, almost oblivious to their heritage. I'm nowhere near an expert in either, but I still try to pass on my knowledge as much as possible to those here on the mainland who are benevolently misinformed about the islands, the people and their heritage.

    Which begs to bring about another side of the argument; If UH did come up with a haka that truly is their own, would it still be considered disrespectful, since:
    1. While it celebrates pacific heritage, it singles out one specific ethnic group. Would it be just as unique to do, say fa'ataupati, or any other type of dance that would be unique to UH?
    2. While the majority of UH players are local, there are a large number of players who are non-local or of non-Pacific Islander heritage. Would it be considered disrespectful if they did it just for the 'shock factor' before the game without learning the roots of the tradition?



    Believe me, I'm not trying to stir the pot. Just adding to the discussion.

    Leave a comment:


  • jkpescador
    replied
    Re: UH Haka

    If you look for haka on youtube.com you'll find:
    Kahuku HS Football Team
    Moanalua HS Football Team
    a couple of Hawaii youth Football Teams
    BYU
    some high school teams in Texas and California

    UH is not the only team using the All Blacks Haka. I believe the haka used at the Hawaii Bowl game had different wordings and motions. I don't know what portion but it did sound different to me. I think when UH was to play New Mexico State it was said that NMSU was going to do the haka also but they didn't.

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  • kiwidiva
    replied
    Thank you for your response and I apologize for my late answer but I haven't been in here for a while!

    I was recently asked what I think of the Maori songs and dances that are performed every night at lu'au across the islands (I guess since I'm so ANTI when it comes to the UH Haka) and I had to give it some thought before I answered.

    I am not as offended by it because most of those shows are attempting to take their audiences on a tour of Polynesia - showcasing the dances of the different islands. I guess I would be offended if Maori dances were excluded from these shows.

    That being said, I have seen some terrible haka performed at luau shows with mispronunciation, tempo much to fast, actions that have nothing to do with the words and inappropriate actions, including one show where one of the girls ended the chant by poking her tongue out! A BIG no-no in my view*.

    In those cases, I just wish that they would learn the songs and dances they are performing from someone who actually knows the meanings (not off the internet like the UH players!)

    Off my original subject but along the lines of issues that you (Scrivener) have raised, I just read an article about Ho'okipa Aloha, a program launched by NCL America's Pride of Hawai'i to give their cruise passengers a real view of hula by using actual halau rather than a show troupe. The shows are designed by respected kumu hula (such as Victoria Holt Takamine & Mapuana Da Silva) and performed by members of their halau. The kumu are using the program to not just entertain the passengers but to EDUCATE them as well. They are also breaking the stereotype of the slender hula dancer by using dancers of all shapes and sizes. They then use the money they make from these performances to benefit their halau and help pay for uniforms and traveling expenses.

    NCL is taking a big chance as some tourists only want to see the commercialized version of what they think Hawaiians and Hawaiian culture are. I think it is awesome that they are smashing those stereotypes and letting the tourists see what hula is really all about! Big props to NCL and to the kumu hula and hula halau who are participating in this program!!

    *There are different accounts as to why our Warriors whatero (stick out their tongues) - it is definitely to intimidate and challenge the enemy but there are some who think it is an imitation of our native lizards-especially when it is done using a flicking motion. I have also read a version that says it is a phallic representation, kind of a "mine is bigger than yours" action - hence it should only EVER be done by men and never with a flicking motion. Women use pukana (the flashing of the eyes) and flirtatious smiles to dazzle the enemy so that while they are distracted, their men can easily come and defeat them. The pukana can be done by men or women, although when men do it, it is once again more of a challenge or an expression to emphasize the words of the haka.

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