Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

[anapuni808]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

uh Miulang - weren't you born/raised on Maui (or something like that)?? I seem to recall hearing about your family on Maui when you were here last year. Just curious - you don't have to answer me here.

[oceanpacific]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

Hey, MiuLAME. Your incessant BRAYING betrays you.

FYI, I live on Oahu, but originally came from the Big Island of Hawaii. You would have known that IF you really paid attention to other threads both of us have participated on.

I'm more qualified than you on these local matters. By far .............

[Miulang]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

I'll be living on Maui again soon, hopefully I can give an objective analysis of this bank that will be impacted. Is it the Central Pacific Bank, since it's the nearest branch?

No, it's the big guy...Bank of Hawaii.

Miulang

[infinitypro]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

And where do YOU live? On Maui? Are you one of the bank's many business customers who use that branch to make deposits and pick up cash in the middle of the day so you can run your business?

I'll be living on Maui again soon, hopefully I can give an objective analysis of this bank that will be impacted. Is it the Central Pacific Bank, since it's the nearest branch?

[Miulang]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

It might be in Seattle, though!

It must be a powerful set of binoculars to make the call from 3000 miles away as to what's good for us folks here in the middle of the Pacific .............

And where do YOU live? On Maui? Are you one of the bank's many business customers who use that branch to make deposits and pick up cash in the middle of the day so you can run your business?

[oceanpacific]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

It might be in Seattle, though!

It must be a powerful set of binoculars to make the call from 3000 miles away as to what's good for us folks here in the middle of the Pacific .............

[LikaNui]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

The bank's business is adversely impacted because the egress for HSF shares the same roadway as the parking lot for the bank.

If... IF it was bad as you predict, I have to wonder why that bank's customers wouldn't have the basic innate intelligence to NOT GO TO THE BANK DURING THAT HOUR?!??
Somebody remind me -- is common sense illegal on Maui?

[Miulang]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

I don't know about the Maui places but the Kauai places got affected because of the security restrictions that was put in place after the events that happened on Kauai. I just hope the security restrictions is a temporary thing.

The bank's business is adversely impacted because the egress for HSF shares the same roadway as the parking lot for the bank. Hence the Judge's order (had HSF been allowed to resume service) that off duty policemen be hired to direct traffic at that corner. When the anti-HSF people tried to do a demo with 100 cars prior to the first voyage, there were some fender benders and heated words exchanged between bank customers and "HSF" customers...and these were their neighbors, not visitors. When HSF starts up again, there is also a "mitigation" requiring that traffic from HSF be limited to 3 cars per light cycle on Kaahumanu, so do the math: if each light cycle is 3 minutes long and only 3 cars per cycle are allowed to merge into the main stream of traffic, how long will the 180th vehicle in line on the ferry dock have to wait to actually merge onto Kaahumanu?

The businesses in the Old Kahului Store Bldg are impacted because their parking lot got sold to the State to provide land for YB (an EA was done for this project). Any potential customers now have to park on the north side of the building in a space about 1/3 the size of the original lot. Both the bank building and the Old Kahului Store (as is the old Kahului RR building next door) are historical landmarks and can't be torn down.

The Coast Guard says that the impacted businesses in Nawiliwili harbor can ask for exemptions, but it sounds like they would have to call the CG every time a customer wanted to get to the stores, so that is a major hassle for the businesses and some customers would just rather avoid the whole security zone checking hassle.

Miulang

[helen]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

they're not bringing their cars. They are using vehicles that are already on the road and operated by renal car compaies.

I could be wrong in my impression and assumptions here but the amount of people traveling via the SuperFerry is going to "add" to the amount of people who come to an island location verus "instead off" coming to an island location. This is couse assuming the number of airline flights don't decrease once the SuperFerry is in operation.

Also keep in mind that the amount of passengers that the SuperFerry carries is around 866 people, that's about roughly about 4 to 5 planeloads worth of people (appologizes in advance for biasing towards Aloha Airlines). The rental car companies would have to increase their fleet to accomadate this increase of passengers (this is assuming that the SuperFerry was a passenger-only service). For sure this is going to permanently add to the amount of cars on an island location. Where as cars being shipped via the SuperFerry would be temporary added to the amount of cars on an island location.

But the businesses being impacted by HSF at Kahului and Nawiliwili harbors are not in the same business as HSF and don't compete with each other anyway: on Maui, there's a bank, a fabric store, a trendy fashion store for young women and a restaurant. In Nawiliwili harbor, it's the Kauai Food Bank, Hesse Flooring and Island Liquidators.

I don't know about the Maui places but the Kauai places got affected because of the security restrictions that was put in place after the events that happened on Kauai. I just hope the security restrictions is a temporary thing.

Regarding the Kauai farmers, CraigFoo needs to remember the Maui situation. Not only were Maui farmers on the SuperFerry's advisory panel, their cooperative fully endorsed the SuperFerry as being a boon for their business. Why would Kauai be any different from Maui in that regard?

Were there any Kauai farmers on the advisory panel? In any event if none of the Kauai based farmers don't want to use the services of the SuperFerry that's fine too.

[LikaNui]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

I've been trying -- really trying -- to let some things just go by. But...
Regarding the Kauai farmers, CraigFoo needs to remember the Maui situation. Not only were Maui farmers on the SuperFerry's advisory panel, their cooperative fully endorsed the SuperFerry as being a boon for their business. Why would Kauai be any different from Maui in that regard?
Regarding the impact on the Maui fabric store and restaurant and bank, JT is correct in predicting they'll get more business rather than less. If they had any marketing sense at all, they'd work a promotion with SuperFerry to offer discounts to SuperrFerry passengers. Ka-$HING!
And lastly...

there will probably be physical altercations as peoples' patience runs thin on both sides.

And that guess predicting violence is based on what evidence, exactly?

I seriously doubt HSF will stop and then start up again just for a mitigation.

*sigh*

[Miulang]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

So why the big stink about not letting the EA and HSF service run concurrently? What no one knows right now is what the actual traffic patterns will be with HSF docking. Maybe that bank or restaurant or fabric store will get more business? Usually, businesses want traffic, that helps with their bottom line. If an EA and HSF service is run concurrently and issues develop, HSF service can always be suspended much like what we see now. So why the win-only-if-it-suits me mentality that we see now?

The fabric store lost all of its parking space to YB when the State purchased the additional land (they are in the Old Kahului Store Bldg., which is a historical landmark). The bank is one of the busiest branches on the island, and without the cops there to direct traffic, there will probably be physical altercations as peoples' patience runs thin on both sides.

And I seriously doubt HSF will stop and then start up again just for a mitigation.

Miulang

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

Whatever happened to win/win? Is it win-only-if-it-suits me?

So why the big stink about not letting the EA and HSF service run concurrently? What no one knows right now is what the actual traffic patterns will be with HSF docking. Maybe that bank or restaurant or fabric store will get more business? Usually, businesses want traffic, that helps with their bottom line. If an EA and HSF service is run concurrently and issues develop, HSF service can always be suspended much like what we see now. So why the win-only-if-it-suits me mentality that we see now?

[Miulang]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

But what you're suggesting is borderline big brother, you're dictating what businesses gets to stay in business and what goes? You live in Seattle, a big city, it's often common to see a new retail building go up and it may not have the same businesses as the old surrounding area but it effectively kills off the old area. Would you say that needs to be stopped?
.

What I'm saying is that the EA would look at the impact on business and then provide the current businesses some relief in the form of mitigations. Around here, no building can be torn down and replaced without an EA automatically generated, at bare minimum. And there are always public notices so that concerned citizens can send comments to City Hall.

Is it the fault of the incumbent businesses that a new business comes into the area? Of course not. But I also don't think it's fair that the bank, the restaurant, the fabric store don't have any access to relief from the onslaught of traffic which may not benefit them. Whatever happened to win/win? Is it win-only-if-it-suits me? If mitigations occur and the businesses still have to shut down, that's one thing. But to force this major change on those businesses without taking their needs into consideration is also big brother.

Yes, you have a point about the cars but you have to also realize, the car issue may be null if one assumes that these people coming in by HSF would have rented cars if they flew in. I think it's safe to leave the cruise ship visitors out of this comparison because I doubt many Hawaii residents travel to another island by cruise ship. So they bring in their cars but don't rent one, that cancels one another.

That is true, once the cars are out of the immediate harbor area. But you cannot deny the fact that 180 cars coming off a boat on one small road with no other egress in or out (as it true for both Kahului and Nawiliwili) will create congestion as they try to merge onto the arterial in a very limited amount of time. This doesn't happen at the airports, where the car rental companies are situated outside the immediate airport and rental cars have more than one way to leave the area.

Miulang

[glossyp]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

glossyp says: "The primary "legal" agriculture products of Kauai are coffee and flowers. Bananas, papayas, green vegetables, etc. are also part of what is produced on Kauai. There is also honey, taro, pork and numerous other items."

And who among such producers needs to or is willing to take at least a two day overnighter to Oahu, via Superferry or any ferry, just to get their product to Oahu? Small scale farmers on Kauai do okay at Kauai farmer markets. Larger scale Kauai farmers are not clamoring for a faster route to Oahu for their products, and Superferry will not be cheaper than current shipping routes as soon as Superferry rates reflect their operating costs plus their investors' profit margin. Is there a farmer large scale or small who feels it necessary to spend the time and costs to babysit his produce across the channel, spend at least one overnight on Oahu and then return to Kauai with his vehicle by water ferry on a regular basis? If the Superferry gang is banking on such Kauai farmers they in for a deserved surprise.

++-
glossyp: "... the future of agriculture on Kauai is dismal because present high school students are generally uninterested or incompetent.."

Many interested and competent high school students are not drawn toward an agricutural because "the future of agriculture on Kauai is dismal", not the other way around. It is derisively laughable to suggest that the Superferry has even one iota of impact toward making the future of agriculture on Kauai any less dismal than it is.
Kauai is not the only Hawaiian island that merits being called a garden island. However, such merits reside in potential far more than actuality. Industrial farming products from California help doom agriculture in Hawaii; even so, without reasonably available, priced and taxed arable land in Hawaii, agriculture that includes more than industrial monocrops (on leased state and homestead lands and questionable water diversions) cannot flourish in Hawaii as they could and should because the very limited land of the islands is being sold off to highest bidder land speculators bearing mainland/foreign monies.

+++-
glossyp: "...as a society do we give up on brightening the future of agriculture simply because it doesn't appear to be appealing or do we make an effort to demonstrate and teach the value of such?"

Would that Oahu's legislators ask that of themselves about Hawaii as they ask of themselves how they can help push Superferry down the throats of Kauai citizens!!

++++-
glossyp: "How many energized and committed students would it take to help agriculture thrive? "


That's kind of like asking: How many energized and committed students would it take to set Hawaii on a course leading to a promising and sustainable future?

So, with respect to agriculture in Hawaii, the first question to ask and be answered should be: How many energized and committed Hawaii legislators would it take to help agriculture thrive?

Considering how many Hawaii legislators hold a real estate license enabling them to profit from their "repesentative duties", I would not hold my breath expecting any change of conscience to benefit the future of agriculture in Hawaii from those quarters.

Thanks for finally taking the time to reply. It is clear that we disagree on whether or not HSF can be a plus for farmers on Kauai. I believe that the more options farmers/producers have for transporting goods and expanding markets creates a potential that did not exist before.

We'll have a better idea of the general condition of agriculture state and county wide when the 2007 ag census is done. One stat worth noting is that the actual number of crop acres harvested increased by nearly 10 percent from the 1997 ag census to the 2002 one.

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

joshuatree: " If a community wants to remain isolated, that is fine, but they need to cut off public assistance too. That's the real meaning of living off the land. Too often, communities cry interference from the outside, yet they don't realize by taking up public assistance, they already are welcoming outside interference. "

Why not round out your picture as regards Kauai, self-sufficiency and "outside interference":

1) Kauai citizens stop paying State and Federal taxes

2) Kauai lease PMRF to U.S. Navy

3) Kauai use non-U.S. shipping concerns and not deal with U.S. import taxes

4) Kauai be able to seek foreign investments independent of U.S./Hawaii restrictions

5) Kauai impose and collect taxes and user fees (in euros, yen, loonies?)

...and more benefits of not being gagged, bound, hands to feet by colonial laws meant to subjugate Kauai citizens for the benefit of the U.S. and the State who together create all the dependency conditions which the pro-Superferries gang complains about.

Yet still the arrogance persists that somehow Honolulu/Oahu society is self-supporting, self-sustaining while Oahu's neighbor islanders are significantly less so?! Such an assumption is so absurd it cannot begin to merit being arguably sensical.

Well, if Kauai is an independent state, then all your suggestions can apply but it's not. From your post, I take it you wish for Kauai sovereignty? If so, nothing wrong, but that would explain the tone in your posts.

I will correct my statement that since Kauaians do pay taxes, if a community wants to remain isolated, that is fine, but they need to take no more public assistance than what they put into the system vis-a-vis taxes. This is similiar to what Gecko was asking about the Molokai siutation. If you take more than you put in, outside influence isn't being forced on you at that point.

There is no arrogance from me, I don't see Oahu as self-supporting or self-sustaining but then, Oahu doesn't seem to have a problem with interisland commerce or interstate commerce. No one is jumping into Honolulu Harbor to stop the HSF.